The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
We are not on the subject of 70 AD yet.
Neither is verse 8.

But you do not care to examine "chronology" and "sequence" issues, but merely LUMP all kinds of things into the SAME "70ad POT" (where some things do not "fit" according to what the text itself TELLS US is the SEQUENCE of events ;) )

Let's stick with 6th C BC until we understand your views.
I think you can grasp my views (as I have been disclosing them in these posts to you), if you will actually examine and ponder what I've PUT, about it!! ;) You keep saying I've not answered you, but I have. :p


[again] ... [for the readers... since my fingers are all typed out :D ... read here (for example): https://biblehub.com/bsb/jeremiah/25.htm ]
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
So am I. ; )

And so are you, it seems.

lol






[for the readers... since my fingers are all typed out :D ... read here (for example): https://biblehub.com/bsb/jeremiah/25.htm ]
It's like trying to pull teeth with bare fingers getting a Futurist to do come critical thinking. Was God present during the fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. Let's see:

DESTRUCTION OF JUDAH 6th C BC:

26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were broken down At the presence of the Lord, By His fierce anger. 27 For thus says the Lord: “The whole land shall be desolate; Yet I will not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, And the heavens above be black.

Oh yeah, THE PRESENCE OF GOD WAS ON THE SCENE, THE EARTH MOURNED AND THE HEAVEN (LIGHTS IN THE SKY) WERE BLACK.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
So basically this whole idea comes from the account of one person, Cassius Dio a Roman historian. For me, that doesn't even come close to enough evidence that the resurrection took place in 70 AD especially in light of all the biblical evidence that it took place at the resurrection of Christ.
I'm not relying at all on this Nero account for the timing. It's interesting, that's all. You have one passage in Matthew with graves being opened and people coming out and going into the city at the time of Christ's resurrection. It's an isolated passage with no conclusions being drawn by the author. We don't know how many were raised. We don't know if they stayed on the earth only to die again or if they ascended up with Christ. We don't know how long they were dead. We don't know if they were OT saints, or murderers. We don't know if this happened all over Judea and the whole planet or if it was isolated to Jerusalem, etc. This passage raises more questions than it answers.

However, we have a lot of passages which place the resurrection at the return of Christ's presence. There are some in John 6 and John 11 and my favorite in John 14. We have 1 Thes 4 written around 51 BC which is clearly future to Paul. Ditto 1 Cor 15:50-52.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Neither is verse 8.

But you do not care to examine "chronology" and "sequence" issues, but merely LUMP all kinds of things into the SAME "70ad POT" (where some things do not "fit" according to what the text itself TELLS US is the SEQUENCE of events ;) )



I think you can grasp my views (as I have been disclosing them in these posts to you), if you will actually examine and ponder what I've PUT, about it!! ;) You keep saying I've not answered you, but I have. :p
So are we in agreement that the presence of God was there when Judah fell to the Babylonians in the 6th century BC? I mean, the Bible, actually says His presence was there.

26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were broken down At the presence of the Lord, By His fierce anger. 27 For thus says the Lord: “The whole land shall be desolate; Yet I will not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, And the heavens above be black.

Notice also that the earth mourned? Do you see that? How does Planet Earth cry? Or, maybe it's not the literal earth mourning. If not, who or what was mourning? Inanimate objects don't mourn. They are pretty emotionless.

Notice also that He did not make a full end of Judah in this destruction. But in 70 AD, Judah was completely destroyed. Do you suppose since God was there the first time that He may have been there the second time as well? If He showed up for a partial destruction, don't you think He'd want to be there for the full destruction?
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
I'm not relying at all on this Nero account for the timing. It's interesting, that's all. You have one passage in Matthew with graves being opened and people coming out and going into the city at the time of Christ's resurrection. It's an isolated passage with no conclusions being drawn by the author. We don't know how many were raised. We don't know if they stayed on the earth only to die again or if they ascended up with Christ. We don't know how long they were dead. We don't know if they were OT saints, or murderers. We don't know if this happened all over Judea and the whole planet or if it was isolated to Jerusalem, etc. This passage raises more questions than it answers.

However, we have a lot of passages which place the resurrection at the return of Christ's presence. There are some in John 6 and John 11 and my favorite in John 14. We have 1 Thes 4 written around 51 BC which is clearly future to Paul. Ditto 1 Cor 15:50-52.
A couple of points PW.
  1. The resurrection has nothing to do with the raising of dead earthly bodies, so no matter how many bodies came out of the grave, it is a moot issue.
  2. The passage in Matthew says that many bodies rose AND, extreme emphasis on AND, AND went into Jerusalem.
  3. In Jude it says that Jesus returns with 10,000's of his saints. In Acts it says that Jesus will return in LIKE MANNER as they saw him leave. Here a little, there a little.... put the two verses together and Christ left with 10,000's of his saints.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
For the record (again), and for the readers who may not have been here back when you and I discussed this in the past:

--Jesus is NOT coming to MARRY 10 or 5 VirginS [PLURAL]--these are who [will go] "[/went] in with [G3326 - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [aka the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His RETURN there (Rev19), like Lk12:36-37,38,40 says "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" ... THEN the meal (G347)]

--THIS "with [G3326]" word being DISTINCT FROM the "WITH [G4862]" word that pertains to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (us) and Christ (re: the MARRIAGE itself)


That's all I wanna type out atm... weary fingers at the present :D
""Jesus is NOT coming to MARRY 10 or 5 VirginS""
I do not know why you need it reframed
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

You changed it
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
So are we in agreement that the presence of God was there when Judah fell to the Babylonians in the 6th century BC? I mean, the Bible, actually says His presence was there.

26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were broken down At the presence of the Lord, By His fierce anger. 27 For thus says the Lord: “The whole land shall be desolate; Yet I will not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, And the heavens above be black.
Notice also that the earth mourned? Do you see that? How does Planet Earth cry? Or, maybe it's not the literal earth mourning. If not, who or what was mourning? Inanimate objects don't mourn. They are pretty emotionless.

Notice also that He did not make a full end of Judah in this destruction. But in 70 AD, Judah was completely destroyed. Do you suppose since God was there the first time that He may have been there the second time as well? If He showed up for a partial destruction, don't you think He'd want to be there for the full destruction?
Well, I posted the link TWICE now (maybe more times :D ), but you've not seemed to read what was there, so I'll place it here [again] and also the whole passage, if this is permitted, so you can see for yourself the passage I was pointing out by posting that link:

Jeremiah 25 (at the link) -

Berean Study Bible Par ▾
Seventy Years of Captivity
1
This is the word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, which was the first year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. 2 So the prophet Jeremiah spoke to all the people of Judah and all the residents of Jerusalem as follows:
3 “From the thirteenth year of Josiah son of Amon king of Judah until this very day—twenty-three years—the word of the LORD has come to me, and I have spoken to you again and again,a but you have not listened. 4 And the LORD has sent all His servants the prophets to you again and again,b but you have not listened or inclined your ear to hear.
5 The prophets told you, ‘Turn now, each of you, from your evil ways and deeds, and you can dwell in the land that the LORD has given to you and your fathers forever and ever. 6 Do not follow other gods to serve and worship them, and do not provoke Me to anger with the works of your hands. Then I will do you no harm.’
7 ‘But to your own harm, you have not listened to Me,’ declares the LORD, ‘so you have provoked Me to anger with the works of your hands.’
8 Therefore this is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘Because you have not obeyed My words, 9 behold, I will summon all the families of the north, declares the LORD, and I will send for My servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, whom I will bring against this land, against its residents, and against all the surrounding nations. So I will devote them to destructionc and make them an object of horror and contempt, an everlasting desolation.
10 Moreover, I will banish from them the sounds of joy and gladness, the voices of the bride and bridegroom, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the lamp. 11 And this whole land will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon for seventy years.
12
But when seventy years are complete, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans,d for their guilt, declares the LORD, and I will make it an everlasting desolation.
13 I will bring upon that land all the words I have pronounced against it, all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah has prophesied against all the nations. 14 For many nations and great kings will enslave them, and I will repay them according to their deeds and according to the work of their hands.’”

The Cup of God’s Wrath
15
This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me: “Take from My hand this cup of the wine of wrath, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink from it. 16 And they will drink and stagger and go out of their minds, because of the sword that I will send among them.
17 So I took the cup from the LORD’s hand and made all the nations drink from it, each one to whom the LORD had sent me, 18 to make them a ruin, an object of horror and contempt and cursing, as they are to this day—Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, its kings and officials; 19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his officials, his leaders, and all his people; 20 all the mixed tribes; all the kings of Uz; all the kings of the Philistines: Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod; 21 Edom, Moab, and the Ammonites; 22 all the kings of Tyre and Sidon; the kings of the coastlands across the sea; 23 Dedan, Tema, Buz, and all who cut the corners of their hair; 24 all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mixed tribes who dwell in the desert; 25 all the kings of Zimri, Elam, and Media; 26 all the kings of the north, both near and far, one after another—all the kingdoms on the face of the earth. And after all of them, the king of Sheshache [see Footnote] will drink it too.
27 “Then you are to tell them that this is what the LORD of Hosts, the God of Israel, says: ‘Drink, get drunk, and vomit. Fall down and never get up again, because of the sword I will send among you.’
28 If they refuse to take the cup from your hand and drink it, you are to tell them that this is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘You most certainly must drink it! 29 For behold, I am beginning to bring disaster on the city that bears My Name, so how could you possibly go unpunished? You will not go unpunished, for I am calling down a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, declares the LORD of Hosts.’
30
So you are to prophesy all these words against them and say to them:
‘The LORD will roar from on high;
He will raise His voice from His holy habitation.
He will roar loudly over His pasture;
like those who tread the grapes,
He will call out with a shout
against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 The tumult will resound to the ends of the earth
because the LORD brings a charge against the nations.
He brings judgment on all mankind
and puts the wicked to the sword,’”
declares the LORD.


[continued in next post]
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
[continued from previous post]

32 This is what the LORD of Hosts says:
“Behold! Disaster is spreading
from nation to nation;
a mighty storm is rising
from the ends of the earth.”
33 Those slain by the LORD on that day will be spread from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried. They will be like dung lying on the ground.

The Cry of the Shepherds
34
Wail, you shepherds, and cry out;
roll in the dust, you leaders of the flock.
For the days of your slaughter have come;
you will fall and be shattered like fine pottery.f
35 Flight will evade the shepherds,
and escape will elude the leaders of the flock.
36 Hear the cry of the shepherds,
the wailing of the leaders of the flock,
for the LORD is destroying their pasture.
37 The peaceful meadows have been silenced
because of the LORD’s burning anger.
38 He has left His den like a lion,
for their land has been made a desolation
by the swordg of the oppressor,
and because of the fierce anger of the LORD.

Footnotes:
3 a Literally I have spoken to you, rising up early and speaking,
4 b Literally to you, rising up early and sending (them),
9 c Forms of the Hebrew cherem refer to the giving over of things or persons, either by destroying them or by giving them as an offering.
12 d That is, the Babylonians
26 e Sheshach is a code name for Babylon.
34 f Hebrew; LXX you will fall like the best of the rams
38 g Some Hebrew manuscripts and LXX (see also Jeremiah 46:16 and Jeremiah 50:16); most Hebrew manuscripts anger

https://biblehub.com/bsb/jeremiah/25.htm

[end quoting; bold and underline mine except for the Headings :) ]
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
^ Verses 38-39 (Jer25 ^ ) -

"37 The peaceful meadows have been silenced because of the LORD’s burning anger. 38 He has left His den like a lion [H3715], for their land has been made a desolation by the sword of the oppressor, and because of His fierce anger."


Hosea 5:14-15 (in the 5:14-6:3 context I'm always pointing out; This being from the perspective of His ASCENSION point in time) -

14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim and like a young lion [H3715 ^ ] to the house of Judah. I, even I, will tear them to pieces and go away. I will carry them off where no one can rescue them. 15 Then I will return to My place until they admit their guilt and seek My face; in their affliction they will earnestly seek Me [/seek Me early].”
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
QUOTE ""There's just one problem with that theory: you're forgetting that the 1,000 years are bookended by the two resurrections, according to Revelation.""

Which is why he runs Everyting together.

All to make the GWTJ into the rapture.
1.Please explain when the judgement below takes place?

2. Does mortal human life on earth continue after this judgement?

Matthew 25:31-32KJV

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
Character assasination is to be used sparingly.

Otherwise king david is also a target and disenfranchised as well
David repented, Josephus didn't

Perhaps you maintain writings of Josephus's
Repentance and salvation before Jesus Christ?

Josephus was a 4 time married adulterous Jewish traitor, who turned against his Jewish people

He was a propaganda priest for Rome and it's emperor's, rewarded with wives and the emperor's wealth.

You quote Josephus as if he was an anointed Apostle of God, sad!
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
By using this technique, he is able to dodge the questions. Perhaps you would like to take a crack at this???

Was God present during the fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:23-26), the fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7-9), the fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-13), and the fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5)? By present, I don't mean He is omnipresent, we all know that. I mean was His presence there in each case carrying out judgment?

And in each instance of these great slaughters at the fall of Judah, Egypt, Babylon and Edom in the sixth century B.C., did the Lord used an invading foreign army to carry out His judgment?
I agree 100%, I believe the same but didn't want to say it.

All the confusion in written response, specifically to evade a direct response

Watermark, you think we're all blind?
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
^ Verses 38-39 (Jer25 ^ ) -

"37 The peaceful meadows have been silenced because of the LORD’s burning anger. 38 He has left His den like a lion [H3715], for their land has been made a desolation by the sword of the oppressor, and because of His fierce anger."


Hosea 5:14-15 (in the 5:14-6:3 context I'm always pointing out; This being from the perspective of His ASCENSION point in time) -

14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim and like a young lion [H3715 ^ ] to the house of Judah. I, even I, will tear them to pieces and go away. I will carry them off where no one can rescue them. 15 Then I will return to My place until they admit their guilt and seek My face; in their affliction they will earnestly seek Me [/seek Me early].”
Your responses are Chaos, mish mashed small large print, underline, brackets, bold, different colors?

I don't read your chaotic responses, in love
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
Well, I posted the link TWICE now (maybe more times :D ), but you've not seemed to read what was there, so I'll place it here [again] and also the whole passage, if this is permitted, so you can see for yourself the passage I was pointing out by posting that link:

Jeremiah 25 (at the link) -

Berean Study Bible Par ▾
Seventy Years of Captivity
1
This is the word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, which was the first year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. 2 So the prophet Jeremiah spoke to all the people of Judah and all the residents of Jerusalem as follows:
3 “From the thirteenth year of Josiah son of Amon king of Judah until this very day—twenty-three years—the word of the LORD has come to me, and I have spoken to you again and again,a but you have not listened. 4 And the LORD has sent all His servants the prophets to you again and again,b but you have not listened or inclined your ear to hear.
5 The prophets told you, ‘Turn now, each of you, from your evil ways and deeds, and you can dwell in the land that the LORD has given to you and your fathers forever and ever. 6 Do not follow other gods to serve and worship them, and do not provoke Me to anger with the works of your hands. Then I will do you no harm.’
7 ‘But to your own harm, you have not listened to Me,’ declares the LORD, ‘so you have provoked Me to anger with the works of your hands.’
8 Therefore this is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘Because you have not obeyed My words, 9 behold, I will summon all the families of the north, declares the LORD, and I will send for My servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, whom I will bring against this land, against its residents, and against all the surrounding nations. So I will devote them to destructionc and make them an object of horror and contempt, an everlasting desolation.
10 Moreover, I will banish from them the sounds of joy and gladness, the voices of the bride and bridegroom, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the lamp. 11 And this whole land will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon for seventy years.
12
But when seventy years are complete, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans,d for their guilt, declares the LORD, and I will make it an everlasting desolation.
13 I will bring upon that land all the words I have pronounced against it, all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah has prophesied against all the nations. 14 For many nations and great kings will enslave them, and I will repay them according to their deeds and according to the work of their hands.’”

The Cup of God’s Wrath
15
This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me: “Take from My hand this cup of the wine of wrath, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink from it. 16 And they will drink and stagger and go out of their minds, because of the sword that I will send among them.
17 So I took the cup from the LORD’s hand and made all the nations drink from it, each one to whom the LORD had sent me, 18 to make them a ruin, an object of horror and contempt and cursing, as they are to this day—Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, its kings and officials; 19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his officials, his leaders, and all his people; 20 all the mixed tribes; all the kings of Uz; all the kings of the Philistines: Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod; 21 Edom, Moab, and the Ammonites; 22 all the kings of Tyre and Sidon; the kings of the coastlands across the sea; 23 Dedan, Tema, Buz, and all who cut the corners of their hair; 24 all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mixed tribes who dwell in the desert; 25 all the kings of Zimri, Elam, and Media; 26 all the kings of the north, both near and far, one after another—all the kingdoms on the face of the earth. And after all of them, the king of Sheshache [see Footnote] will drink it too.
27 “Then you are to tell them that this is what the LORD of Hosts, the God of Israel, says: ‘Drink, get drunk, and vomit. Fall down and never get up again, because of the sword I will send among you.’
28 If they refuse to take the cup from your hand and drink it, you are to tell them that this is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘You most certainly must drink it! 29 For behold, I am beginning to bring disaster on the city that bears My Name, so how could you possibly go unpunished? You will not go unpunished, for I am calling down a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, declares the LORD of Hosts.’
30
So you are to prophesy all these words against them and say to them:
‘The LORD will roar from on high;
He will raise His voice from His holy habitation.
He will roar loudly over His pasture;
like those who tread the grapes,
He will call out with a shout
against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 The tumult will resound to the ends of the earth
because the LORD brings a charge against the nations.
He brings judgment on all mankind
and puts the wicked to the sword,’”
declares the LORD.


[continued in next post]
Your response above is normal, average writing skills.

Why do you respond with the chaotic post's, that we have been discussing for the past few weeks, why?
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
David repented, Josephus didn't

Perhaps you maintain writings of Josephus's
Repentance and salvation before Jesus Christ?

Josephus was a 4 time married adulterous Jewish traitor, who turned against his Jewish people

He was a propaganda priest for Rome and it's emperor's, rewarded with wives and the emperor's wealth.

You quote Josephus as if he was an anointed Apostle of God, sad!
Finally something I can agree with you on... :)
 

MendedSoul

Well-known member
Sep 10, 2019
430
289
63
Your response above is normal, average writing skills.

Why do you respond with the chaotic post's, that we have been discussing for the past few weeks, why?
What’s the big deal if his writing skills are normal and average? (In your opinion).
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
What’s the big deal if his writing skills are normal and average? (In your opinion).
It appears you have no concept on the history of my post, perhaps you should read the last 75 pages and get caught up :)
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
Yes
No man knows the day or hour.

Next
As stated, your claim that the ten Virgin parable is a pre-trib rapture?

You have been clearly shown its the second coming, not a pre-trib rapture, because no man knows the day or hour.

You continue to cry that posters twist your claims in response?

It's you who is in denial of the very clear and basic truth, and you run and hide in non response, why :)
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
In rev 14 he comes on a cloud and gathers ripe fruit.

In 1 the 4 he does something similar

After the trib he comes SOLELY to conquer. No rapture after the trib.

No removal after the flood
No removal post sodom

No CONQUORING king at the rapture,the ripe fruit of rev 14,the 144k of rev 14,the one taken of mat 24,the 5 virgins of mat 25,or with lot or Noah.

No horses,no army,no conquoring king,no retaking the land.

All the catching away is pre judgement except rev 14.

There is ZERO examples or instances of post judgement catching away.

The Only Exceptions are exodus (removal into testing,judgement,wandering,and thinning of the heard. Removal and basically cursed)
...and two other ot examples.

There is zero traction for any postrib removal.

The only "sorta deal" that might be more or less remade into a postrib gathering is the end of rev 14 ...a gathering straight to the winepress.


I mean what a slam dunk.

The bible OVERWHELMINGLY SUPPORTS a pretrib rapture.
You have been shown "Several Times" that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the second coming and last day resurrection, this isn't a pre-trib rapture as you falsely claim.

"Last Day"

Now you have to bend and twist the scripture to "Change" the last day.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The resurrection of the believer seen above is the "Last Day" not a pre-trib rapture.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus
saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day