Grace

[Peterlag]

Hello again @Peterlag, you mentioned that water baptism is something that was part of the OT (in post #53 above), but I'm confused, because you've pointed me to the Gospels instead (which are part of the NT, not the Old).

Is there anywhere in the OT (or perhaps even Jewish "Tradition" from OT times) that mentions water baptism? If there is, it has definitely slipped my mind (which is, of course, why I am asking, and because I am interested, particularly in the origins of John's baptism).

Thanks again

~Deut
p.s. - the Gospels do seem to me a bridge of sorts between the OT and the New, the old covenant and the new. Principally, they tell us about Lord Jesus, but they also tell us the Good News, yes? For instance:

John 5​

24 "He who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."​

​

I think we agree. I don't know anymore about water and Old Testament than what I already shared. My knowledge is in the new covenant and when I say that I mean the New Testament.

 

[Blik]

Galatians 5:1-4
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

We will fall from the understanding of the grace that is in Christ, and succumb to the doctrines and theories that are dictated by human conception if we seek justification by our own works. The concision was from those who taught circumcision was necessary for salvation. Circumcision is a work of the flesh required by the Old Testament Law, and by the way so is water baptism, which is a carryover from part of the Levitical Law.

There are many examples of people in the Old Testament who would wash themselves with water as a final step to being clean. Water baptism was an outward sign of washing, and then you would be clean to God. Baptism in water, and the need to be circumcised passed away with the coming of Pentecost, as did the other Levitical Laws. To be led by the spirit is to not be under the yoke of bondage with the extreme of legalism, seeking the works of the flesh from the old covenant concerning the past Law administration that was written to Israel.

It's clear from the gospels that water baptism had to do with the kingdom, which was ministered by John who was known as the Baptizer, and not a minister for the Church of God. John who was a prophet functioning under the old covenant was appointed by God to prepare and confirm the promises made to Israel. His message was to tell those who lived under the old covenant that the king had come and “the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

He used water as a sign to baptize those who believed the promised Messiah would be coming in just a matter of months and to illustrate that he would be the Christ, who would baptize them not with material water, but with holy spirit, which is “power from on high.” From the habit of tradition, and only for a short period of time, a small handful of people were baptized with water into the New Testament, but never again afterwards.

In the epistles written just a little bit past the beginning of the New Testament is where we read the only time water baptism is mentioned is to note there is no more need for it, and that we are now to be baptized with holy spirit. And this is why in Acts 2:38, Peter commands “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ.” In Acts 8:16, Peter and John “baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” In Acts 10:48, Peter “commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.” In Romans 6:3, it declares “that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ.”

There is not one exception to this practice where we see water baptism, which belonged to the time period when Christ walked the earth, being used once the Church of God had become established. To suggest water baptism has anything to do with the only begotten resurrected Son of God, who is functioning within the New Testament as the head of the body of Christ, has led to nothing but confusion and has provided a bomb that has blown the local churches into pieces.

I think you understanding of the liberty we have is different from the Lord's intentions. It is true that God was opposed to all the rules the Jewish men made like how far you could walk on the Sabbath, but more than that it was pointed out that taking on sin was to be in bondage. Ask an addicted person about it if you don't believe this is true.

God gave the Jews help to obey the law by giving physical things to do to remind them of the law like cutting foreskin. Now we are not to be lead by these customs but by the Holy Spirit.

God uses symbols to teach us of spiritual things. Water is used throughout scripture to symbolize washing away sin and immerging a new person. Washing with water can be a powerful symbol of the spiritual cleansing or it can be only taking a physical bath. John the Baptist did a powerful spiritual cleansing when it was done as a spiritual act, but Christ did an even more powerful baptism for it was with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Blik]

I think we agree. I don't know anymore about water and Old Testament than what I already shared. My knowledge is in the new covenant and when I say that I mean the New Testament.

I don't think you knowledge always amounts to what the Lord is sharing with you because you have not grounded it in knowledge of God the Father as He is explained in the first five books of scripture. If you won't learn about the Father how could you understand the Son when the Son only came to fulfill what the Father did?

It is 6,000 years between us and how the men who wrote down God's instructions thought about the words they used, so you need to study this with a man who can show you how Christ fulfilled it all, relating the two testaments.

 

[Peterlag]

I don't think you knowledge always amounts to what the Lord is sharing with you because you have not grounded it in knowledge of God the Father as He is explained in the first five books of scripture. If you won't learn about the Father how could you understand the Son when the Son only came to fulfill what the Father did?

It is 6,000 years between us and how the men who wrote down God's instructions thought about the words they used, so you need to study this with a man who can show you how Christ fulfilled it all, relating the two testaments.

I wrote about this concerning Hebrews where it talks about we have no further need of the old.

 

[Blik]

I wrote about this concerning Hebrews where it talks about we have no further need of the old.

We don't need to know about our creator? Or the Father of Jesus? The Father and the Son, in the spiritual world are one, but if the Father is cut out then there is no Jesus. They are one.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I wrote about this concerning Hebrews where it talks about we have no further need of the old.

Please provide the post submitted by you where you "wrote about this concerning Hebrews where it talks about we have no further need of the old". And please do not provide a link to an outside source. I will not open links to outside sources.

Additionally, because you appear to have no appreciation for all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable, I approach your doctrine as a Berean, those who searched the scriptures daily (Acts 17:11).

Those who believe they have "graduated" and have no further need to search the Scriptures are sorely in need of humility concerning the purpose of God in providing His magnificent Word to mankind. There is much to be gleaned in the reading of Scripture ... all of Scripture (both OT and NT).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I think we agree. I don't know anymore about water and Old Testament than what I already shared. My knowledge is in the new covenant and when I say that I mean the New Testament.

Here is reference to baptism in NT about which God tells us He does not want us to be ignorant:

1 Corinthians 10:

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;


Now, why would God want us to understand the "baptism unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea"?

What is the spiritual significance?

If you do not understand what is written in OT about the fathers being under the cloud, and all passed through the sea how can anyone share the fullness of the spiritual reality with you ... and further, how can you share the fullness of the spiritual reality with anyone (and there is a spiritual reality which is significant under the NC.)

 

[garee]

Galatians 5:1-4
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

We will fall from the understanding of the grace that is in Christ, and succumb to the doctrines and theories that are dictated by human conception if we seek justification by our own works. The concision was from those who taught circumcision was necessary for salvation. Circumcision is a work of the flesh required by the Old Testament Law, and by the way so is water baptism, which is a carryover from part of the Levitical Law.

There are many examples of people in the Old Testament who would wash themselves with water as a final step to being clean. Water baptism was an outward sign of washing, and then you would be clean to God. Baptism in water, and the need to be circumcised passed away with the coming of Pentecost, as did the other Levitical Laws. To be led by the spirit is to not be under the yoke of bondage with the extreme of legalism, seeking the works of the flesh from the old covenant concerning the past Law administration that was written to Israel.

It's clear from the gospels that water baptism had to do with the kingdom, which was ministered by John who was known as the Baptizer, and not a minister for the Church of God. John who was a prophet functioning under the old covenant was appointed by God to prepare and confirm the promises made to Israel. His message was to tell those who lived under the old covenant that the king had come and “the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

He used water as a sign to baptize those who believed the promised Messiah would be coming in just a matter of months and to illustrate that he would be the Christ, who would baptize them not with material water, but with holy spirit, which is “power from on high.” From the habit of tradition, and only for a short period of time, a small handful of people were baptized with water into the New Testament, but never again afterwards.

In the epistles written just a little bit past the beginning of the New Testament is where we read the only time water baptism is mentioned is to note there is no more need for it, and that we are now to be baptized with holy spirit. And this is why in Acts 2:38, Peter commands “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ.” In Acts 8:16, Peter and John “baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” In Acts 10:48, Peter “commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.” In Romans 6:3, it declares “that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ.”

There is not one exception to this practice where we see water baptism, which belonged to the time period when Christ walked the earth, being used once the Church of God had become established. To suggest water baptism has anything to do with the only begotten resurrected Son of God, who is functioning within the New Testament as the head of the body of Christ, has led to nothing but confusion and has provided a bomb that has blown the local churches into pieces.

Many doctrines that had a foundation in the old are traded off for another kind of foundation .The oral traditions of mankind . It can be seen with any tradition used as a sign, baptism, circummsion and tongues.. .all abused in the sense of self edifying and not walking by faith after the unseen eternal .

Water baptism like circummsion are old testament ceremonial laws shadows of the good things to come. They are used to represent the first born, our bloody husband beforehand and the glory that did follow. The veil representing the flesh of Christ was torn form the top to the bottom as a sign of the glory that followed the graves were opened and mankind entered into their eternal abode as the wife of Christ..

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Water baptism a sign of the change in priesthood from the Levi's to the tribe of Judah to signify the un-seen seed .

A kingdom of priest to the whole world .

It comes by a personal inward desire to become a member of the new priesthood of believers. Not all Levi's were priest.

To make sure men did not use that ceremony as some sort of self edifying work as a wonder. Rather then its intended purpose pointing to a unseen God and that glory . When Aarons two son who were baptized they added strange fire (their own personal way of being identified for 15 seconds of false fame). Fire consumed them left their priestly ceremonial cloth without a hint of the smell of smoke . You could say the gunpower was on their hands .God will not share his glory with corrupted mankind

Leviticus 10 King James Version (KJV) And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.

Water baptism is still available . Circumcision representing one first born Jesus is finished.

 

[lastofall]

Thank you for your view: i would just add that this grace wherein we stand and by which we receive salvation we have access exclusively through and by faith; for grace is not by itself, but is always received through faith; and it is faith that must be always mentioned when we refer to grace, lest we would begin to suppose grace is of its own self without faith: beside this let us keep in remembrance that God only and exclusively gives grace to the humble, lest we should begin to be proud.

 

[garee]

Here is reference to baptism in NT about which God tells us He does not want us to be ignorant:

1 Corinthians 10:

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;


Now, why would God want us to understand the "baptism unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea"?

What is the spiritual significance?

If you do not understand what is written in OT about the fathers being under the cloud, and all passed through the sea how can anyone share the fullness of the spiritual reality with you ... and further, how can you share the fullness of the spiritual reality with anyone (and there is a spiritual reality which is significant under the NC.)

I would offer..

The clouds it would seem to represent the unseen presence of God. Satan saying he will rise or ascend to the place of God. Saying I will be like god.

Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Clouds would seem to indicate the source of the doctrines of God from there they pour down clean living water the gospel .

Deuteronomy 32:1-3 King James Version (KJV) Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

Salt represent judgment . In that way we are informed in James both flesh and salt water are not the same source.

Believer are given fresh water to pass through the sea of Judgment . They have the perfect law the law of judgment the letter death And the un-seen spirit of the law. The law of faith. The just and the justifier of our salvation.

The purifying doctrine that does fall like rain quenching a thirsty soul making our burden lighter..

James 3:12-15 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

 

[Peterlag]

Here is reference to baptism in NT about which God tells us He does not want us to be ignorant:

1 Corinthians 10:

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;


Now, why would God want us to understand the "baptism unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea"?

What is the spiritual significance?

If you do not understand what is written in OT about the fathers being under the cloud, and all passed through the sea how can anyone share the fullness of the spiritual reality with you ... and further, how can you share the fullness of the spiritual reality with anyone (and there is a spiritual reality which is significant under the NC.)

I never said I don't understand the old testament. I said it does not apply to us.

 

[Peterlag]

Please provide the post submitted by you where you "wrote about this concerning Hebrews where it talks about we have no further need of the old". And please do not provide a link to an outside source. I will not open links to outside sources.

Additionally, because you appear to have no appreciation for all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable, I approach your doctrine as a Berean, those who searched the scriptures daily (Acts 17:11).

Those who believe they have "graduated" and have no further need to search the Scriptures are sorely in need of humility concerning the purpose of God in providing His magnificent Word to mankind. There is much to be gleaned in the reading of Scripture ... all of Scripture (both OT and NT).

I have no links to outside sources. My links are my own writings. Whether the link or coping and pasting will give you the same data from me.

Hebrews 8:9-13, 9:1-2
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, said the Lord.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

 

[Blik]

I never said I don't understand the old testament. I said it does not apply to us.

The OT fives us the characteristics of the God who gave us Christ and created us. You say this does not apply to us. That is so unreasonable that I am putting you on ignore, you don't make sense.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I never said I don't understand the old testament.

1 Cor 10 is not OT ... 1 Cor 10 is NT and 1 Cor 10 tells us not to be ignorant of what is written in OT writings.

So, what is the spiritual significance that is applicable in our day and time of which God does not want us to be ignorant?

I said it does not apply to us.

So God does not want us to be ignorant of something that "does not apply to us"????

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I have no links to outside sources.

You had a link to an outside source in at least one of your threads. However, I think the moderator removed the link.

Hebrews 8:9-13, 9:1-2
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, said the Lord.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

I read Hebrews 7,8,9 ... nowhere in those chapters does God tell us we have no need of reading OT Scripture ... in fact there are verses in NT which tell us the opposite of what you espouse:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

All Scripture (which would include OT) ... profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness so that the believer may be equipped, fully furnished with all that is needed for good works.


Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.


1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


I will stick with God on this one, Peterlag, and I will not join you in ignoring that which God tells us not to be ignorant of.

 

[Peterlag]

You had a link to an outside source in at least one of your threads. However, I think the moderator removed the link.





I read Hebrews 7,8,9 ... nowhere in those chapters does God tell us we have no need of reading OT Scripture ... in fact there are verses in NT which tell us the opposite of what you espouse:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

All Scripture (which would include OT) ... profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness so that the believer may be equipped, fully furnished with all that is needed for good works.


Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.


1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


I will stick with God on this one, Peterlag, and I will not join you in ignoring that which God tells us not to be ignorant of.

Yeah but what I'm saying is the link is my own writings and not some outside source.

 

[Peterlag]

1 Cor 10 is not OT ... 1 Cor 10 is NT and 1 Cor 10 tells us not to be ignorant of what is written in OT writings.

So, what is the spiritual significance that is applicable in our day and time of which God does not want us to be ignorant?





So God does not want us to be ignorant of something that "does not apply to us"????

I did not say we should not understand the OT or that we should not learn from it. But it is not written to us and therefore does not apply to us.

 

[garee]

I did not say we should not understand the OT or that we should not learn from it. But it is not written to us and therefore does not apply to us.

Hi Peter. I don't bite simply sharing my opinions as bread as do you brother .(private interpretations )

Was the understanding revealed by faith coming from our unseen God coming down to Able the first prophet, apostle sent with the gospel, the first martyr. Who like Stephen full of the Holy Spirit revealed the glory of God .

Did they both see the same Jesus?

Acts 7:55 But Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit. He looked up into heaven and saw the glory of God. And he saw Jesus standing at God’s right side.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yeah but what I'm saying is the link is my own writings and not some outside source.

I will rephrase what I submitted in Post #66:

Please provide the post submitted by you where you "wrote about this concerning Hebrews where it talks about we have no further need of the old". And please do not provide an external link. I will not open an external link.​

Now do you understand ???

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I did not say we should not understand the OT or that we should not learn from it. But it is not written to us and therefore does not apply to us.

Still no answer to the question and I will ask again ...

1 Corinthians 10:​

​

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;​

​

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;​

​

​

Now, why would God want us to understand the "baptism unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea"?​

​

What is the spiritual significance?​