Catholicism vs Protestantism
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the 66 book Bible also talks about dead people being asleep or resting, I think.
but then, it also talks things other than sleep occurring after death.
Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will bring fruit from my work; yet I don't know what I will choose. 23 But I am in a dilemma between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.
but then, it also talks things other than sleep occurring after death.
Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will bring fruit from my work; yet I don't know what I will choose. 23 But I am in a dilemma between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.
Catholic bible say the dead is rest, combine catholic and Protestant bibles say the dead sleep, why catholic lie and teach the dead able to hear billion people that still on earth, like pagan that pray to their dead ancestor.
Paul indicate the dead not bear fruit
Let quote what Paul say
:".....but if I live on the flesh this will bring fruit from my work."
He weigh what the best, living on flesh to bring fruit, or die, not bear fruit but happy living in heaven
Paul indicate the dead not bear fruit
Let quote what Paul say
:".....but if I live on the flesh this will bring fruit from my work."
He weigh what the best, living on flesh to bring fruit, or die, not bear fruit but happy living in heaven
Faith coming by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
We know the Apostle Paul was baptized in Jesus' name. (Acts 22:16) It was Jesus Himself that actually sent Paul to Damascus stating that there Paul would be told what was expected of him. (Acts 22:10)
Notice what Ananias said to Paul, "The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard." Acts 22:14-15
Ananias concluded his statement by saying what are you waiting for? Get baptized. This points to the fact of what is necessary first, and what a person can expect will occur after they have obeyed the command to be baptized in the name of Jesus. No mention of using a phrase.
We know the Apostle Paul was baptized in Jesus' name. (Acts 22:16) It was Jesus Himself that actually sent Paul to Damascus stating that there Paul would be told what was expected of him. (Acts 22:10)
Notice what Ananias said to Paul, "The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard." Acts 22:14-15
Ananias concluded his statement by saying what are you waiting for? Get baptized. This points to the fact of what is necessary first, and what a person can expect will occur after they have obeyed the command to be baptized in the name of Jesus. No mention of using a phrase.
well, they also say other things as well about the Dead.
do you believe that people who have a different understanding of the Bible from yourself are lying?
well, we may wish to remember but the question is whether or not asking Christians in heaven to pray with you is against the Bible.
it seems to me there's enough leeway in this passage alone to say that it isn't necessarily against the Bible
Matthew 22:31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, haven't you read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
from God's perspective, there are no dead people!
do you agree, then, that Paul is saying that when he dies, he will be happy in heaven? not asleep?
looking at the passage
Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will bring fruit from my work; yet I don't know what I will choose. 23 But I am in a dilemma between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Yet, to remain in the flesh is more needful for your sake.
it seems to me that there is some particular situation the Paul is interested in remaining on Earth regarding the Philippians.
there's a particular work, a particular fruit regarding them.
do you believe that people who have a different understanding of the Bible from yourself are lying?
well, we may wish to remember but the question is whether or not asking Christians in heaven to pray with you is against the Bible.
it seems to me there's enough leeway in this passage alone to say that it isn't necessarily against the Bible
Matthew 22:31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, haven't you read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
from God's perspective, there are no dead people!
do you agree, then, that Paul is saying that when he dies, he will be happy in heaven? not asleep?
looking at the passage
Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will bring fruit from my work; yet I don't know what I will choose. 23 But I am in a dilemma between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Yet, to remain in the flesh is more needful for your sake.
it seems to me that there is some particular situation the Paul is interested in remaining on Earth regarding the Philippians.
there's a particular work, a particular fruit regarding them.
Continued:
Of the apostles, only the events surrounding the Apostle Paul's baptism is recorded. However, in the absence of direct evidence, circumstantial evidence points to the truth:
1. Jesus told the apostles to go and teach others to observe ALL things that He had commanded them. (Matt 28:18-20) His statement indicates that what the apostles would command of others applied to them personally as well.
2. Peter was the first to preach the gospel which included the message of Jesus death, burial and resurrection, and the associated instructions that EVERYONE was required to obey. (Acts 2:38) This indicated that the apostles were not exempt, they too would have to be "buried with Jesus" by submitting to water baptism in the name of the Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins.
3. Jesus said to preach the gospel and when it was first preached it included instructions that required EVERYONE's obedience as witnessed by #1 and 2. Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. (Mark 15:16) Those who believe the entire message will get water baptized and be saved. Those who do not believe the message will not obey and therefore will be damned. We know the apostles were not damned as seen from other scriptures.
Of the apostles, only the events surrounding the Apostle Paul's baptism is recorded. However, in the absence of direct evidence, circumstantial evidence points to the truth:
1. Jesus told the apostles to go and teach others to observe ALL things that He had commanded them. (Matt 28:18-20) His statement indicates that what the apostles would command of others applied to them personally as well.
2. Peter was the first to preach the gospel which included the message of Jesus death, burial and resurrection, and the associated instructions that EVERYONE was required to obey. (Acts 2:38) This indicated that the apostles were not exempt, they too would have to be "buried with Jesus" by submitting to water baptism in the name of the Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins.
3. Jesus said to preach the gospel and when it was first preached it included instructions that required EVERYONE's obedience as witnessed by #1 and 2. Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. (Mark 15:16) Those who believe the entire message will get water baptized and be saved. Those who do not believe the message will not obey and therefore will be damned. We know the apostles were not damned as seen from other scriptures.
After accepting the message of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, repentance, being water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. As shown in scripture all of these things are required for one to be born again.
I don't know at what exact age I was filled with the Holy Spirit. I began attending church with a neighborhood family I would guess I was around 10 years old. After the family moved away I only went to church on occasion.
I do recall that when I began regularly attending church again, as an adult, that I was shocked when in praise during worship service tongues began to flow out from deep within my soul.
Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?
I don't know at what exact age I was filled with the Holy Spirit. I began attending church with a neighborhood family I would guess I was around 10 years old. After the family moved away I only went to church on occasion.
I do recall that when I began regularly attending church again, as an adult, that I was shocked when in praise during worship service tongues began to flow out from deep within my soul.
Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?
Amen to that!
though I'm not sure that
word of God
in that verse necessarily means the Bible.
I think Abraham had faith based on some sentences God had spoken out loud
Romans 4:1 What then will we say that Abraham, our forefather, has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed (or, "faithed" God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
interesting story about Paul, how does it apply to those disciples of Jesus who had been baptized by John?
with those disciples then baptized again?
though I'm not sure that
word of God
in that verse necessarily means the Bible.
I think Abraham had faith based on some sentences God had spoken out loud
Romans 4:1 What then will we say that Abraham, our forefather, has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed (or, "faithed" God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
interesting story about Paul, how does it apply to those disciples of Jesus who had been baptized by John?
with those disciples then baptized again?
when do you believe the apostles who had been baptized by John were baptized in the name of Jesus?
looking at the passage
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all who are far off, even as many as the Lord our God will call to himself."
I think there is a key thing that many people pass over:
Peter's answer is in response to a particular question,
"what shall we do?"
they didn't ask
what shall we believe?
nor did they ask
in whom shall we Believe?
very similar to the Rich Young ruler
"what must I do to inherit eternal life".
God meets us where we are, and most people expect some kind of ritual for becoming a Christian.
and there's certainly nothing wrong with that!
I'm sure you know that the longer ending of Mark is not considered scripture by many people.
so again, we have the question of who decides what is scripture.
if baptism is a critical piece of salvation, then I find it extremely strange that Paul preached to many people, but only baptized a few.
1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one should say that I had baptized you into my own name. 16 (I also baptized the household of Stephanas; besides them, I don't know whether I baptized any other.) 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Good News--not in wisdom of words, so that the cross of Christ wouldn't be made void.
we can see that he has trouble even remembering who he baptized.
and I think it's amazing that he says that Jesus didn't send him to do that.
looking at the passage
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all who are far off, even as many as the Lord our God will call to himself."
I think there is a key thing that many people pass over:
Peter's answer is in response to a particular question,
"what shall we do?"
they didn't ask
what shall we believe?
nor did they ask
in whom shall we Believe?
very similar to the Rich Young ruler
"what must I do to inherit eternal life".
God meets us where we are, and most people expect some kind of ritual for becoming a Christian.
and there's certainly nothing wrong with that!
I'm sure you know that the longer ending of Mark is not considered scripture by many people.
so again, we have the question of who decides what is scripture.
if baptism is a critical piece of salvation, then I find it extremely strange that Paul preached to many people, but only baptized a few.
1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one should say that I had baptized you into my own name. 16 (I also baptized the household of Stephanas; besides them, I don't know whether I baptized any other.) 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Good News--not in wisdom of words, so that the cross of Christ wouldn't be made void.
we can see that he has trouble even remembering who he baptized.
and I think it's amazing that he says that Jesus didn't send him to do that.
yes, God is a righteous judge, and I think a righteous judge would take everything into account!
so if a person honestly searches the scriptures, and comes away believing that they must be baptized to be saved, then they will be judged according to that.
likewise, a person who does something similar but comes away believing that baptism is a sign of salvation will be judged according to that.
Luke 6:36 Therefore be merciful, even as your Father is also merciful. 37 Don't judge, and you won't be judged. Don't condemn, and you won't be condemned. Set free, and you will be set free. 38 "Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, will be given to you. For with the same measure you measure it will be measured back to you."
and
2 Samuel 22:26 With the merciful you will show yourself merciful. With the perfect man you will show yourself perfect. 27 With the pure you will show yourself pure. With the crooked you will show yourself shrewd.
do we want only those with absolutely perfect understanding of the scriptures to be allowed into heaven?
I think that would be a very harsh measure that would then be applied to us as well!
so if a person honestly searches the scriptures, and comes away believing that they must be baptized to be saved, then they will be judged according to that.
likewise, a person who does something similar but comes away believing that baptism is a sign of salvation will be judged according to that.
Luke 6:36 Therefore be merciful, even as your Father is also merciful. 37 Don't judge, and you won't be judged. Don't condemn, and you won't be condemned. Set free, and you will be set free. 38 "Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, will be given to you. For with the same measure you measure it will be measured back to you."
and
2 Samuel 22:26 With the merciful you will show yourself merciful. With the perfect man you will show yourself perfect. 27 With the pure you will show yourself pure. With the crooked you will show yourself shrewd.
do we want only those with absolutely perfect understanding of the scriptures to be allowed into heaven?
I think that would be a very harsh measure that would then be applied to us as well!
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I thought you talked about speaking in tongues prior to being baptized in the name of Jesus.
am I misremembering?
thanks for the answer!
now, I had asked about being baptized in the spirit, and you answered about being filled with the spirit.
in your mind are they the same thing?
yes,
though I would say that people are baptized by the spirit at the same time that they believe in Jesus
(or as John puts it, "believe into" Jesus).
am I misremembering?
thanks for the answer!
now, I had asked about being baptized in the spirit, and you answered about being filled with the spirit.
in your mind are they the same thing?
yes,
though I would say that people are baptized by the spirit at the same time that they believe in Jesus
(or as John puts it, "believe into" Jesus).
I think when the Bible talks about the dead sleeping, it's talking about how their body looks.
people not alive on this Earth can hear the gospel
1 Peter 4:4 They think it is strange that you don't run with them into the same excess of riot, blaspheming: 5 who will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For to this end the Good News was preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed as men in the flesh, but live as to God in the spirit.
to God, no one is dead.
of course, a person can decide if that is an inconsistency or not.
how do you decide which different understandings are lies and which ones are not?
that's correct!
it was simply intended to show the possibility that Christians in heaven know what is happening on Earth.
if you assert that asking people in heaven to pray with you is
against the Bible,
then it's up to you to find a verse that says that, imo.
the verse you posted from ecclesiasticus, when read as part of the entire passage,
doesn't really say that again imo.
people not alive on this Earth can hear the gospel
1 Peter 4:4 They think it is strange that you don't run with them into the same excess of riot, blaspheming: 5 who will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For to this end the Good News was preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed as men in the flesh, but live as to God in the spirit.
to God, no one is dead.
of course, a person can decide if that is an inconsistency or not.
how do you decide which different understandings are lies and which ones are not?
that's correct!
it was simply intended to show the possibility that Christians in heaven know what is happening on Earth.
if you assert that asking people in heaven to pray with you is
against the Bible,
then it's up to you to find a verse that says that, imo.
the verse you posted from ecclesiasticus, when read as part of the entire passage,
doesn't really say that again imo.
That what you think, but not what Bible say, Bible not say the dead look like sleep but it is not, so you have to ad the word the body look like sleep
. That talking about unsave soul, they are not sleep, they are in hades 1. Catholic not only ask people that sleep to pray with them, catholic pray to
Read: Pope Francis’s prayer to Mary during coronavirus pandemic
O Mary,
you always shine on our path
as a sign of salvation and of hope.
We entrust ourselves to you, Health of the Sick,
who at the cross took part in Jesus' pain, keeping your faith firm.
You, Salvation of the Roman People,
know what we need,
and we are sure you will provide
so that, as in Cana of Galilee,
we may return to joy and to feasting
after this time of trial.
Help us, Mother of Divine Love,
to conform to the will of the Father
and to do as we are told by Jesus,
who has taken upon himself our sufferings
and carried our sorrows
to lead us, through the cross,
to the joy of the resurrection. Amen.
Pope entrust to Mary
The title is pray to Mary, not ask Mary pray together with catholic.
You ask me to provide scripture not to pray to the dead?, you already provide the scripture that the dead in Christ are sleep. How billion people pray to the sleep mary, it will,be 100 people every minute, 24/7 when she sleep
. That talking about unsave soul, they are not sleep, they are in hades 1. Catholic not only ask people that sleep to pray with them, catholic pray to
Read: Pope Francis’s prayer to Mary during coronavirus pandemic
O Mary,
you always shine on our path
as a sign of salvation and of hope.
We entrust ourselves to you, Health of the Sick,
who at the cross took part in Jesus' pain, keeping your faith firm.
You, Salvation of the Roman People,
know what we need,
and we are sure you will provide
so that, as in Cana of Galilee,
we may return to joy and to feasting
after this time of trial.
Help us, Mother of Divine Love,
to conform to the will of the Father
and to do as we are told by Jesus,
who has taken upon himself our sufferings
and carried our sorrows
to lead us, through the cross,
to the joy of the resurrection. Amen.
Pope entrust to Mary
The title is pray to Mary, not ask Mary pray together with catholic.
You ask me to provide scripture not to pray to the dead?, you already provide the scripture that the dead in Christ are sleep. How billion people pray to the sleep mary, it will,be 100 people every minute, 24/7 when she sleep
Isn't the below passage describing the Saints of the OT as a great cloud of witnesses that encompass us?
Hebrews 12
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Hebrews 12
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
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Thank for reading my respon
I think we need to clarify what the word witnesses in this verse.
Say I am a thief and police take me to the court, I deny and say I am not a thief, than police call 100 witnesses that saw when and where I stole.
Now we apply this to that verse. Chapter 12 is explain chapter 11.
Chapter 11 is talking about faith or believe. Fait of what?, faith in God
We never see God, why we believe in God?
The judge in my story above never saw I stole, why he believe that I am a thief?
Because police brought 100 witnesses
Why we believe God, because we believe in thausand of witnesses of people that meet God in a visions like the prophets, in Indonesia a lot of Muslim convert because of visions and dream.
So this verse not talking about dead saint able to witness what we do
And this verse don't say, the dead saint witness what we do on earth.
I think we need to clarify what the word witnesses in this verse.
Say I am a thief and police take me to the court, I deny and say I am not a thief, than police call 100 witnesses that saw when and where I stole.
Now we apply this to that verse. Chapter 12 is explain chapter 11.
Chapter 11 is talking about faith or believe. Fait of what?, faith in God
We never see God, why we believe in God?
The judge in my story above never saw I stole, why he believe that I am a thief?
Because police brought 100 witnesses
Why we believe God, because we believe in thausand of witnesses of people that meet God in a visions like the prophets, in Indonesia a lot of Muslim convert because of visions and dream.
So this verse not talking about dead saint able to witness what we do
And this verse don't say, the dead saint witness what we do on earth.
Jesus describes the boundaries of the afterlife in a parable.
Luke 16:26
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
Note how after being told about the chasm between himself and Lazarus doesn't include those living still on earth. Lazarus is not cut off from the living on earth only the rich man in torment is. That is the boundary between the living and the dead.
There is no chasm between Lazarus and the rich man's living brothers.
Luke 16:26
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
Note how after being told about the chasm between himself and Lazarus doesn't include those living still on earth. Lazarus is not cut off from the living on earth only the rich man in torment is. That is the boundary between the living and the dead.
There is no chasm between Lazarus and the rich man's living brothers.
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