Not By Works

Judges1318 · Jul 4, 2020

Yes, you can fall from among the elect.
Being elected simply means being chosen. And you are chosen because you have faith in God, not because God predetermined ahead of time that you will be created to be one who has faith in God. So if you stop having faith in God you will cease to have that which God uses to determine who will be among the chosen and who will not.

And so the question boils down to whether or not a person can stop having faith. I say they can. Others say you can't, and the reason they say you can't is because God purposely created believers to be believers and have no choice in the matter. That belief is based on an incorrect understanding of what 'election' is.

BillG said:

That would be true IF being elected meant God purposely decided ahead of time that you will be created as a person who believes in God, no matter what. But that's not what being elected means. Being elected simply means God chooses you and includes you in the body of Christ when you believe the gospel.

On the basis of your faith you are chosen by God to be among the members of Christ's body. As opposed to being chosen to be included in Christ on the basis of your meritorious works of righteousness. Esau and Jacob illustrate this truth. God chose Jacob over Esau without consideration of their work, for they had done nothing upon which to choose them that way. The point being, God has already determined ahead of time that being chosen will not be based on what you do, but rather based on God's grace. Grace that is received through believing, not working. This is a theme in Paul's letters. Salvation has always been by grace, not works. The law did not change this truth.

mailmandan · Jul 4, 2020

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

Please help me to understand how that would not be considered fatalistic determination on God's part.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 4, 2020

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

The elect are the chosen ones of God, yes. However, they were not chosen on the basis of their faith. That’s the foreseen faith doctrine that doesn‘t have any foundation in the scriptures. Look at this passage...

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.[Romans 8:28-30]

Notice it says He justified. We are justified by what? Faith. It says He justified by faith those He foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and also glorified. This is not based upon their faith, but according to His purpose. Just as it also says in Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.

WHOM he predestined he called WHOM he called he justified

We are justified by faith. So you can not remove faith from the equation Just because it is not in this passage

eternally-gratefull · Jul 4, 2020

BillG said:

This is so true. Can’t get away from this

VCO · Jul 4, 2020

Micaiah-imla said:

I guess you mean by COME SHORT of IT, means No Grace at ALL, thinking they can be good enough, to deserve heaven.

I do not remember if I told you, how come I came to Believe wholehearted in OSAS Theology. It was because of my personal experience of being SAVED after 3 attempts at suicide the last week of 1977. Prior to that I was just a church-goer and a proud Lutheran, thinking my infant Baptism meant I was saved. NOT EVEN CLOSE, went to church regularly, had the whole order of service Memorized, day-dreamed through Every Sermon, was PROUD the I went to Lutheran Service Volunteers (summer camp at the Lutheran College), was an Acolyte (Altar Boy) another source of pride, ETC. I was A LUTHERAN, LUTHERAN, NOT A Christian Lutheran.

Two nights I had a Pistol against my TEMPLE, with the Trigger half PULLED; the IMMENSE TERROR I FELT at the MOMENT, was strictly because I KNEW BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, I was about to walk into Hades/Hell, if I finished pulling that trigger.

After weeping for hours, "Forgive me LORD", over and over again, even during the Dream or Vision, where AT HIS CROSS, I felt HIS WARM blood fall on my Forearms as I reached up to HIM from my KNEES. I felt the Holy Spirit come into my HEART (Human Spirit), and CHANGED my HEART FOREVER. I KNEW IT WAS REAL. I KNEW HE INSTANTLY MADE MY HEART TRUST HIM TOTALLY, FOREVER. I KNEW HE HAD A PLAN FOR MY LIFE. IT WAS A COMPLETE SURRENDER TO HIM, OUT OF INTENSE LOVE FOR HIM. And I think one of my PRIMARY Spiritual Gifts was that TOTAL TRUST IN HIM. It is FRESH IN MY MIND, and YES I AM SMILING, as I type this.

THE Church I grew up in, NEVER TAUGHT BORN AGAIN, NEVER TAUGHT THAT TOTAL TRUST IN HIM WAS POSSIBLE, IT ALL HAD TO COME FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT. There is a CHANGE in the HEART, that NEVER FADES. I AM NOT MY OWN, I HAVE BEEN BOUGHT WITH A PRICE.
HE WILL NEVER, LET GO OF ME! AND I KNEW THAT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, that night of my Third attempt at Suicide. I HAD THE OPPOSITE INTENSE FEELING OF KNOWING THAT I WAS GOING TO STEP INTO HADES/HELL, a couple Days EARLIER, if I finish Pulling that Trigger. It is VERY REAL, so VERY REAL!

Romans 8:30 (HCSB)
30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.

EleventhHour · Jul 4, 2020

star said:

Absolutely!

The thread guards the truth .... many seek to insert works .... but it is indeed not by our works but by His completed work alone.

Magenta · Jul 4, 2020

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

The elect are the chosen ones of God, yes. However, they were not chosen on the basis of their faith. That’s the foreseen faith doctrine that doesn‘t have any foundation in the scriptures. Look at this passage...

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.[Romans 8:28-30]

Notice it says He justified. We are justified by what? Faith. It says He justified by faith those He foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and also glorified. This is not based upon their faith, but according to His purpose. Just as it also says in Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.

Romans 8:28

dcontroversal · Jul 4, 2020

Chester said:

Who HAS believed.....past tense....and with a perfect tense application

I was saved the micro second I believed

I am SAVED right NOW because of that micro second of belief

I am continuing to be saved because of that micro second of belief

A PAST COMPLETED ACTION with PRESENT CONTINUING RESULTS is EXACTLY what the bible teaches.

dcontroversal · Jul 4, 2020

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

Irresistible grace doesn't teach no one resists the Holy Spirit, but that those who are saved don’t resist it all the way until death. Remember, John Calvin didn’t come up with the TULIP. It’s been around since around 1900 or so. I don’t think anyone knows for sure who came up with TULIP. Irresistible grace is not a perfect name for it, but you can’t spell TULIP TULEP. I’d guess that’s why they used Irresistible Grace for that acrostic.

Another name for it is effectual calling. Notice how effectual the Spirit’s drawing was when you received Him. That’s what we teach. When He draws ppl, they come. They aren’t forced to be saved, neither does He drag them kicking and screaming against their will. The Greek word used is ‘helko’(pronounced hel-koo-o) and it means to literally drag off, lead, impel, draw with an inward power.

It is also found in John 18:10 when Peter drew(helko) his sword. Did the sword say no when Peter drew it, or did Peter effectually draw it from its scabbard?

It is also found in John 21:11 when Peter drew the net to shore. Did the net say no when Peter drew it, or did Peter effectually draw it to the shore?

It is also found in Acts 16:19 when they dragged(KJV uses drew) Paul and Silas to the market place. Did they say no or did the mob of ppl effectually draw them to the market place?

It is also found in Acts 21:30 when the ppl dragged(KJV uses drew) Paul out of the temple and shut the doors behind him. Did Paul say no when the ppl drew him out of the temple, or did the ppl effectually draw him out of the temple?

Again, this doesn’t mean God drags us to Him kicking and screaming against our wills, but teaches us when He draws them, He effectually draws them to Himself.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g1670

This view is incorrect. Grace is indeed resistible....

Many are called, but few are chosen.

Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian

The rich young ruler walked away sorrowful

ALL THREE are examples of grace being resisted.

And before anyone jumps on the wagon....THE CALL of God given to the MANY above is irrevocable!

dcontroversal · Jul 4, 2020

EleventhHour said:

Amen........JESUS BEGINS, FINISHES and COMPLETES the work of faith in us.

dcontroversal · Jul 4, 2020

EleventhHour said:

Many called, few chosen is clear enough to prove some resist grace!

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Jul 4, 2020

mailmandan said:

Correct. Foreknowledge is not just knowing before hand, but its a verb meaning God does something when He foreknew certain individuals. Like Dr. William Mounce said. A butterfly is not a dairy product with wings. Foreknowledge is not just know beforehand. Yes, He knows beforehand who will be saved, as He elected them unto salvation, and this salvation takes place in time.

dcontroversal · Jul 4, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

I am thinking Ephesians refutes his stance on the order! And I am fairly confident FAITH comes before repentance!

EleventhHour · Jul 4, 2020

dcontroversal said:

Thank God!! I know I would surely not make it, if it was not all of Him.

dcontroversal · Jul 4, 2020

PennEd said:

These are the questions that make it so I can never get to the place that I chose God, without HIM gifting me the faith to believe. I kinda think it’s where Rosemary and a few others are.

I am not a Calvinist, and have actually never read a single word John Calvin wrote. I’m only going by what I believe Scripture clearly says, without a human understanding of “ but that’s not fair” .

I also do not believe limited atonement is in the Bible. So Calvinists aren’t too keen on me either. Must be doing something right if I have something that offends everyone! Lol

I truly believe the main division is about the sovereignty of man vs the sovereignty of God. Or free will vs predestination. We will not get an absolute answer to this on this side of eternity. It’s THE Gospel unto Salvation that is vital, not this issue.

But ima take a stab at it anyway!
I KNOW I wouldn’t have chosen Christ. I was living a completely sinful life, and always sought new and better ways to further that sinful lifestyle.

My brother got saved in the navy, came home and gave me the True Gospel. I’d like to say I lived happily ever after, but yeah, no.
I continued in my lifestyle for a good while. Then, a couple yrs later, and several requests from him, I found myself at his Church! Lol. I DID the Church thing already. 8 yrs Catholic grammar school and Church. No waaaay I’m doing that stuff again!

Yet there I was. Somehow in his Church! Immediately I could feel something different here. There was no phoniness, people were genuinely Worshiping the Lord, and what I now know, was the Holy Spirit Present! I believe it was there that I became a true believer and Child of God.

So several places, including Jesus Himself, say we are dead. We’re not sick, we’re not weak. We are DEAD!

A dead man can do nothing but be dead. So I know it was ALL the Lord ! I’m not going to speak about anybody else. I just know it was all Him.

Amen......and yet God says.....LET US REASON TOGETHER and though your SINS BE SCARLET.....

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Jul 4, 2020

mailmandan said:

Fatalism involves an impersonal force. Election deals with a loving God who chose to save a multitude who don‘t deserve to be saved to begin with.

Here is where ppl get election and predestination wrong. They think if God elects and predestines some and not all, He has done an injustice to those He left in their fallen state. That’s not true. The elect were just as lost, just as undeserving, just as much the God-hater the non-elect are. There was nothing in the elect that was missing in the non-elect and therefore God elected them. The non-elect weren’t any worse than the elect and therefore God left them in their fallen state.

The elect get grace(unmerited favor) and mercy, neither which they deserved. The non-elect get justice(what they deserve). He does injustice to no one.

Magenta · Jul 4, 2020

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

The problem is how it calls God's character into question, in punishing forever after
those who fail to make choice that was never offered to them in the first place.

Can God do as He pleases? Of course He can.

But God is loving, just, and merciful.

Add above all, good.

EleventhHour · Jul 4, 2020

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

Yet, why does He only love some to salvation?

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Jul 4, 2020

EleventhHour said:

You ask Him.

EleventhHour · Jul 4, 2020

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

I do not have to... because that is not TRUTH... God does not only love some to salvation.

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