Not By Works

[EleventhHour]

And no Calvinist teaches God forces us to come to Him. We teach He effectually calls His elect ppl, but He enables them via divine quickening. But we don’t teach salvation is forced on anyone. Nor do we teach He drags us to Him kicking and screaming, either.

Well I highly doubt this is accurate I am sure I can find many teachers in the Reformed camp that would disagree

And yes Calvin did teach that God's grace is "irresistible" which means there is only way to respond.

I believe that you get away from the idea of "force" by stating that God only chooses those that His grace will be effectual upon.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Agree.... how is God glorified if it is by force?

My main point of contention always is that God only draws SOME, those He has chosen leaving others with no hope.. that is not supported in scripture.

You have to remember, the question shouldn‘t be why God draws some, but why does He draw any?

If God has to draw(insert try to save) everybody, then that’s not grace, but He is now obligated to try to save everybody. That turns grace on it’s head. It turns Grace(I have no idea why my iPad puts a capital “G” on grace<——huh, here it didn’t—-unless it thinks of the name Grace)into an obligation. If God doesn’t try to save everybody, then He isn’t being fair. Trust me, none want Him to be fair.

But for Him to save by Grace , unmerited favor, He must have the right to exclude others from this Grace.

 

[stonesoffire]

Pretty sure this thread is trying to "work" it's way to Heaven.

haha...now this is funny..

 

[Magenta]

Yes foreknowledge comes to the forefront. It is a Greek verb, proginosko, which means God does something in foreknowing them...i.e...electing them to salvation. Foreknowledge is not omniscience. You’re conflating the two. God knows everybody whoever lived via His omniscience. He foreknows the elect by electing them.

God already knows the end From the beginning, even

Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
Isaiah 46:10

 

[EleventhHour]

You have to remember, the question shouldn‘t be why God draws some, but why does He draw any?

If God has to draw(insert try to save) everybody, then that’s not grace, but He is now obligated to try to save everybody. That turns grace on it’s head. It turns Grace(I have no idea why my iPad puts a capital “G” on grace<——huh, here it didn’t—-unless it thinks of the name Grace)into an obligation. If God doesn’t try to save everybody, then He isn’t being fair. Trust me, none want Him to be fair.

But for Him to save by Grace , unmerited favor, He must have the right to exclude others from this Grace.

Disagree, in your view He has chosen to draw some and left the rest for damnation so the question is why some and not others which you cannot answer.

Stating He has the "right" begs the question.

 

[Magenta]

You have to remember, the question shouldn‘t be why God draws some, but why does He draw any?

If God has to draw(insert try to save) everybody, then that’s not grace, but He is now obligated to try to save everybody. That turns grace on it’s head. It turns Grace(I have no idea why my iPad puts a capital “G” on grace<——huh, here it didn’t—-unless it thinks of the name Grace)into an obligation. If God doesn’t try to save everybody, then He isn’t being fair. Trust me, none want Him to be fair.

But for Him to save by Grace , unmerited favor, He must have the right to exclude others from this Grace.

Everything God does is for His glory, and to magnify His supremacy .

All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is extending to more and
more people may overflow in thanksgiving, to the glory of God. 2 Corinthians 4:15

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

God already knows the end From the beginning, even

Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
Isaiah 46:10

That’s His foreknowledge. He has declared the end from the beginning. And His counsel shall stand. Now, where else can we find this? also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,[Eph. 1:11].

 

[Magenta]

That’s His foreknowledge. He has declared the end from the beginning. And His counsel shall stand. Now, where else can we find this? also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,[Eph. 1:11].

Do you make a distinction between foreknowledge and omniscience?

It seemed you did in a previous post, but it could be just that I need more coffee

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Do you make a distinction between foreknowledge and omniscience?

It seemed you did in a previous post, but it could be just that I need more coffee

Yes. Omniscience deals with His knowing all things. Foreknowledge is Him knowing certain ppl. It’s a verb, too, which means He does something when He foreknows them. I. E. electing them to salvation.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Disagree, in your view He has chosen to draw some and left the rest for damnation so the question is why some and not others which you cannot answer.

Stating He has the "right" begs the question.

That’s not my view, that’s what the bible teaches. It is His right to do as He pleases and He doesn’t seek our approval, either. You act as if mankind deserves to be called. Because, if He doesn’t, then He isn‘t playing fair.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Remember, WHOM(ppl) He foreknows He predestined...


For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to becomeconformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;[Romans 8:29]

Obviously He hasn’t foreknows everyone as that would mean all are predestined, called, justified and also glorified. But foreknow is a verb which means it is an active word.

Yes WHOME

Who are the whome

Those he chose based on random selection

Or those who obeyed his gospel

Ie. We have on one hand two people drowning. He chose one and said no to the other

If n the other hand. He knew if the situation and went to save both. And chose to save the one who trusted him vs the one who would reject him and he chose this before he even went to them

Ie. He predestined that those who would believe would be saved

Just like in his prayer when he prayed for not only those who believed him then but those who believe like them

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And no Calvinist teaches God forces us to come to Him. We teach He effectually calls His elect ppl, but He enables them via divine quickening. But we don’t teach salvation is forced on anyone. Nor do we teach He drags us to Him kicking and screaming, either.

Yet it could be seen the same way. He chose to save them and bring them to faith (no one resists) and chose to
Force those he did. It chose to
Never have an opportunity to have faith (hence in effect forcing them to not believe)

Just trying to let you see from a different perspective bro

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes. Omniscience deals with His knowing all things. Foreknowledge is Him knowing certain ppl. It’s a verb, too, which means He does something when He foreknows them. I. E. electing them to salvation.

Yes for knowing is a verb again it is applicable to all things not just this thing. He is Continually knowing. Nothing takes him by surprise.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That’s not my view, that’s what the bible teaches. It is His right to do as He pleases and He doesn’t seek our approval, either. You act as if mankind deserves to be called. Because, if He doesn’t, then He isn‘t playing fair.

No one is saying mankind deserves anything, and that’s your VIEW of what the Bible teaches.

Let’s try not to get heated again please.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have to remember, the question shouldn‘t be why God draws some, but why does He draw any?

If God has to draw(insert try to save) everybody, then that’s not grace, but He is now obligated to try to save everybody. That turns grace on it’s head. It turns Grace(I have no idea why my iPad puts a capital “G” on grace<——huh, here it didn’t—-unless it thinks of the name Grace)into an obligation. If God doesn’t try to save everybody, then He isn’t being fair. Trust me, none want Him to be fair.

But for Him to save by Grace , unmerited favor, He must have the right to exclude others from this Grace.

Again disagree

If he selects some only and not others what does that make him? If it is to
Be true unmerited favor it should be OFFERED to all. Otherwise it is selective grace

He states the means to which this grace is applied

If you believe you are not condemned

If you do Not believe you are condemned

As sovereign God he has the right to determine how his grace is applied. I do not see how we can call
God sovereign yet claim he does not have to right to base his grace gift any way he chooses

If he has the right to do it the way you see it he has just as much right to do
It the way we see it

 

[VCO]

I have been having PC problems for two days, as my LapTop TOTALLY CRASHED. I do not know if it was a mechanical failure or a very nasty Malware, but it gave up the ghost only 3.5 years in.

I will not boot to WINDOWS, but it will boot to BIOS. It was made cheap, hinges busted a year ago, hand to jimmy-rig it with small snap rings, and I have been expecting something else to go Wrong. I bought a new one on a BIG SALE, in January, so I am glad I did. I got most of the important stuff installed all day yesterday already, except for one game, can't find the disk. It seems to be built a lot better.

I heard the Covid-19 virus has the Palestians and Israeli's working together provide help for Seniors and the needy. Remember when they are all calling for PEACE, that is when the Antichrist comes in, and starts a 7 year Peace treaty with Israel, and then abandons the Treaty 3.5 years later, and becomes the worst enemy they have ever had. So time may be short.

 

[Magenta]

Yes. Omniscience deals with His knowing all things. Foreknowledge is Him knowing certain ppl. It’s a verb, too, which means He does something when He foreknows them. I. E. electing them to salvation.

Thank you for explaining that It seems foreknowledge is really just a verb in that sense/context, then, since God "doing something" is the action of election. You have said a few other things I things I wonder about... because I do see words as being very important to understand the finer meanings of, and generally feel I have a good grasp of these things even if I do not always express myself as well as I would wish.

One of them is where you said that regeneration happens all at once, "simultaneously."

Perhaps I will return to this later. It is just that I feel my calling and regeneration took place over a very long period of time.

The other one was where you were explaining the actual drawing being effective, or effectual. Here.

You said:

The Greek word used is ‘helko’ (pronounced hel-koo-o) and it means to literally drag off, lead, impel, draw with an inward power.

Which seems to contradict:

They aren’t forced to be saved, neither does He drag them kicking and screaming against their will.

Yet, when the sword is drawn, it has no choice.

Of course I do not believe we are forced, but that in having the Truth presented to us, and having the fear of God firmly established within our self in recognizing His supremacy and absolute power, wisdom dictates only one response, because to turn back to our own vomit is the alternative. This is where our will comes into play. I do not care for the term free will, preferring instead to use self will, especially as it relates to being either aligned with God's, or opposing His. God's calling is effectual in bringing us to that crossroad of choice, something that seems to be a sticking point for some. Maybe it is just that within my own process, which included a great deal of resistance, I became aware of finally arriving at a place of needing no more convincing of the Truth of God's Word. This was not instantaneous for me. It was a state I became of aware of after much resistance, at which point I laid down my opposition to Him, stopped resisting, and surrendered.

 

[EleventhHour]

That’s not my view, that’s what the bible teaches. It is His right to do as He pleases and He doesn’t seek our approval, either. You act as if mankind deserves to be called. Because, if He doesn’t, then He isn‘t playing fair.

I stated no such thing.

My bible teaches..

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Redefining "world" to mean elect does not stand up to scrutiny.

 

[jackrosie]

Listen, I am not trying to brainwash you in any way. Take what I give you, get your Bible, research this, study it, pray over it and about it. I don’t want you to just take my word for it. Research this for yourself.


Are you thinking what I’ve presented is true to the texts I’ve provided? If you have any more questions, feel free to fire away.

I need to ask you a question..first..no one can brain wash me...I’m open..but that doesn’t mean I take it on board.

When you say the elect..do you mean the chosen ones by God?
Does he have a purpose for them to do his will on this earth?

Because I believe he does.....he knows who will carry out his will.

To Glorify His Name and “Only His Name”,

 

[Judges1318]

When you say the elect..do you mean the chosen ones by God?

The 'elect' and the 'chosen' are exactly the same.
People are elected/chosen on the basis of their faith in God, not their works of righteousness. That's the gospel in a nutshell.

God had it in mind right from the beginning that men will be elected on the basis of their faith, not their righteous works.