"Not by works" - false!

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posthuman said:
Acts 21 is Paul knowingly and willingly walking into a trap laid for him by the Jews.
the vow is the binding of his hands and feet at the hands of the Jews with "his own belt" as prophesied ((vv. 10-11))
the Jews did not physically tie him up; the Romans did. the Jews deceitfully bound him with a voluntary vow ((this was not the keeping of the Law)), then knowing where he was, having him surrounded and captive at the temple, seized him & handed him over to the Gentiles.
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Paul didn't try to avoid the trap, he was given permission to explain who he was before his conversion and that silenced the Jews. It turned out to be a great Gospel opportunity for him.
It sounds like most of the Jews who converted, still kept the law. Just as many Gentile Christians choose to keep some of the old covenant laws to this day, so it's a case of allowing believers to observe as much or as little of the non essential old covenant laws.

Some Christians drink alcohol and others don't, some eat pork and others don't so it's an individual preference thing which shouldn't be a stumbling block for fellowship.
 
ScottyPchristian said:
Paul didn't try to avoid the trap, he was given permission to explain who he was before his conversion and that silenced the Jews. It turned out to be a great Gospel opportunity for him.
It sounds like most of the Jews who converted, still kept the law. Just as many Gentile Christians choose to keep some of the old covenant laws to this day, so it's a case of allowing believers to observe as much or as little of the non essential old covenant laws.

Some Christians drink alcohol and others don't, some eat pork and others don't so it's an individual preference thing which shouldn't be a stumbling block for fellowship.
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Acts 21:13-14
Then Paul answered, "What do you mean by weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus." So when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, "The will of the Lord be done."

1 Corinthians 9:19-23
For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
 
jaybird88 said:
he said he followed the example of Jesus and that those in his audience should do the same. the example of Jesus was the law. special note, that statement was made after the crucifixion so you really cant go back and say Jesus said those things under another covenant so they dont count.

there is nothing in the bible to suggest all of a suddon when Jesus starts preaching that you can no longer be forgiven for a sin. the Father always and continues to forgive. you gonna disown your children forever when they make a mistake? so why would the Father do that to us?
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I find there's a lot of disagreement around the question of believers continuing to sin after they have been converted / regenerated.

Many seem to believe they can always resist the temptation to sin, as long as they abide in Christ. This sounds logical, but I have yet to hear of a believer who can successfully abide in Christ at all times and no longer sin at all.

I've had many Christians try to convince me that they've been sinless since they were born again. They quote a whole bunch of scriptures, to make their case that we are required to be sinless and if your not then your not really saved.

Some of the popular verses they use are, "be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect" and "shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound" and "he who remains faithful to the end shall be saved", there are many others to list but sufficed to say they quote these scriptures and make them a requirement to attain salvation.

I try to emulate Christ all the time, but I find that the old man still haunts me and lands some punches when my guard is down. My sinless friends tell me that I can't claim to be a believer and continue in sin, they don't make any distinction between premeditated sin and sin that's committed at the spur of the moment such as reacting angrily to someone who cuts you off in traffic.
 
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posthuman said:
Acts 21:13-14
Then Paul answered, "What do you mean by weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus." So when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, "The will of the Lord be done."

1 Corinthians 9:19-23
For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
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I'm glad you mentioned 1 Cor, 9:19-23 because so many use these verses to look like the world, act like the world, dress like the world, go to worldly night clubs and make Church like a rock concert.

I get what Paul is saying, but it's easy to take it to another level where it becomes unprofitable and even sinful. Paul was Christlike in the sense that he was in the world but not of it, I've even heard some professing believers say that we must be relevant or our witness won't bare any fruit. They say that it's no use being a monk in some secluded monastery, away from the real world.

We can see mega Churches attracting thousands of people but they preach a man centered gospel and give people false hope.
 
preacher4truth said:
Keep in mind one of them assured another he is saved after admitting he lives a lifestyle of sin, in the face of 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. Let that sink in.
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So did this person lose
Salvation or not?

If you think he had it. What makes you think you deserve salvation more then him?
 
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posthuman said:
representative of nations, absolutely. fathers of nations, absolutely. but even nations are comprised of people -- you can't have an 'wicked nation' or a 'blessed nation' without the people of that nation being personally wicked or sharing in the blessing.

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad -- in order that God's purpose in election might stand.. ​
​
even if we read this as the 'twins' being nations, it takes the people of those nations to do good or bad things. if God elects a nation it must needs indicate that the people of that nation are under the effect of that election.

btw @Pulie you notice it says here that before they were even born and done anything, whether bad or good, God elected? that this election takes place before any work, in order that God's purpose of election might stand? this is defining a characteristic of God's election for us: that it is wholly His own doing and not based in any way on the works, will, desire or effort of man. IMO this passage all by itself logically destroys your version of the meaning of election.
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Keeping it strictly in relation to nations, though, and those nations being representative of individual believers on one hand and individual non-believers on the other hand, it is not in any way against God's character for Him to choose/decide ahead of time that He will reward those who believe and punish those who do not, as Scripture has attested from the very beginning: believe and live, the reward being a life more abundant and ever after, in full relationship with our Creator in a new creation untainted by sin, with death defeated... or deny God and be separated from life forever after, via the second death (for all die the first).
 
eternally-gratefull said:
So did this person lose
Salvation or not?

If you think he had it. What makes you think you deserve salvation more then him?
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You 'conveniently' found this post of his, that was on page 51 of a 133 pages long thread? Plus, no one has replied to this thread since 6/18 and you 'conveniently' found it? You're trying to bait him. Not cool.
 
I have been worrying about my sin last night....why do some people feed fear into us..when we sin....I’m off topic I know...but needed to get this off my chest.

Am I to shudder in fear of my losing it with a non believer on another site..because he keeps bad mouthing God?
 
jackrosie said:
So...what are you doing........adding more fuel to the already raging fire?.....taking sides......” not cool”
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Let it go, he promised in the closed thread that would be his last post to me, then that thread gets shut down and he so comes in here.

again, not worth it, oncefallen has spoken. Let do what he says,
 
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jackrosie said:
I have been worrying about my sin last night....why do some people feed fear into us..when we sin....I’m off topic I know...but needed to get this off my chest.

Am I to shudder in fear of my losing it with a non believer on another site..because he keeps bad mouthing God?
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You will have that, feel sorry for him, replace your anger with that, because think of his eternity, and remember, God loves him.
 
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Magenta said:
it is not in any way against God's character for Him to choose/decide ahead of time that He will reward those who believe and punish those who do not, as Scripture has attested from the very beginning: believe and live, the reward being a life more abundant and ever after, or deny God and be separated from life forever after, via the second death (for all die the first).
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amen sis, this is gospel 101 and Gods character to the max
 
eternally-gratefull said:
Let it go, he promised in the closed thread that would be his last post to me, then that thread gets shut down and he so comes in here.

again, not worth it, oncefallen has spoken. Let do what he says,
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Yes,oncefallen has spoken.....I think his tolerance is quite amazing.....but now we all know the score.....I don’t want to risk being banned...I love it here.x
 
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Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
So, did you dig this thread up to poke at @preacher4truth again?
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It's only a couple of days ago I made that statement brother. Interestingly enough, and not even in the topic there is the question "what makes you think you deserve salvation more than him" or whatever it was. Well, it is well known that my belief is no one deserves salvation, that's a fact, so the statement is non sequitur. My stance on the warning to professing believers stands as per 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, by the grace of God I will always stand on it, defend it and be consistent. Thanks for having my back though brother!
 
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An issue with sin is this. All of us continue to sin. John says if we claim we are without sin, we decieve ourselves.

If we stood in front of God today. We, like Daniel, and John, and lets not forget Isaiah, who was horrified, and called himself a man of unclean lips. We would instantly realize just how sinful we really are, Christian growth is a process. The closer we get to God. the MORE sinful we should see ourselves as the truth of our sinfulness is deeper exposed (not that we sin more, but that our sin is exposed to us in a far deeper way)

I think the problem is we all make the same mistake the jew's made. We look to the law. And we say, Well I do not commit these sins, or I do not do those things which are unlawful. So i must be a pretty righteous person. Instead of allowing the spirit of God teach is personally the real sin issues we all have in our lives. Which goes far deeper than the law can even begin to take us. So we see ourselves as ok. Or worse yet (And I did this for years) we do see our sin but we do not like it. So we hide it, or look for people who have worse sins that us (like sexual sin) and start judging and calling them out. Declaring they could not be saved, or lost salvation (really in my book the same thing in this context) yet because they do not commit those sins, we are ok. We can still have our sin and hide it, we are saved, and the pressure is taken off us. This is also the danger of legalism. It has brought a many down so that they finally leave, and made others so self aware and worried that all they do is judge others. while completely ignoring their sin.

We all have our sin issues.

For some it is pride. Others is it something sexual. Others it is money, or fame, or just having the attitude that no one is going to tell me what to do. I am my own man, I will chose who to be nice too. and who does not deserve anything from me.. There are so many sin issues I can not even come close to naming them all here. and I am sure I do not even know them all. as I am still learning..

We see examples of Paul. A pharisee of all pharisees. Who although according to the law in his day was righteous, Yet the closer he grew to God the more sinful he realized he really was.. Oh what a wretched man I AM!..

Can we all come to this? Can we start to see ourselves as God does. Or does it scare us? How can we grow if we do not see our own sin, while continually judging and attacking others for their sins?

As james said, If we keep the WHOLE law yet STUMBLE in one point (to stumble means it was something that takes us by surprise or we tripped over something thus it tripped us up) we are found guilty of the whole law.

If just STUMBLING in one area makes us guilty before God and worthy of death. How can any of us claim we are more worthy of salvation than anyone else. As an old pastor of mine was apt to say. Any day I wake up and I am not in Hell (where i deserve to be) is a good day.

Maybe we all need to take this attitude. It would help us take focus off self. and direct us to loving others. Which is the means of Growth.. Seek after the things of the spirit, and obey the greatest of commands. Which is to love god and others.. In this, may the light of Christ show through us.

I know I have failed and continue to many times. May I myself grow in this area.. May God bless us all
 
EleventhHour said:
Salvation is not by works

We do not put God in our debt

Salvation is a free gift

New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Titus 3:5
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If we obey God He is not in our debt. If a child obeys his father and puts his bike away in the garage, the father doesn’t owe the boy or girl something.
 
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