Not By Works

[PennEd]

I can definitely see it but the verse doesn't end there does it? Can you see that Jesus said that the reason He never knew them was because they were lawless (violating the Torah/law)?

Their inequity was that they were without law. What will our inequity be then? I don't see Jews claiming to heal the sick in the name of Jesus. He is not talking to the Jews, he is talking to you and me...

God bless brother.

But the point is that these guys were never saved to begin with. Jesus never knew them. He never gave them a new heart and made them a new creation in Him.

So this passage cannot be used to say we can lose our so ship, or Salvation.

 

[preacher4truth]

Short answer: NO, as least not on my part.

Longer answer:
I tried giving EG the benefit of the doubt. @preacher4truth and @Sackcloth-N-Ashes said EG kept calling them liars. Then low and behold EG calls me a liar. It let is go. Then EG calls me a liar a second time. I'm not Columbo, but seems to be a pattern here.

You have your CAUSE and EFFECT mixed up IMO.

The CAUSE is EG calling people liars
The EFFECT is calling EG out on it
The common denominator is EG calling liars people who disagree with EG
Further circumstantial proof: We disagree with you as much as EG. We treat you civilly and I am thankful you are civil.

So, if I have the CAUSE and EFFECT correct, then EFFECT (us called him out un-Christian like behaviour) would stop when the CAUSE (EG calling us liars) stops. (Aside: The is an example of the Reformed concept of 'first' and 'second causes'. The 'first cause' is God permitting EG to call us liars. The 'second cause' is for EG to call us liars. Another 'second cause' is for us to respond to EG. I don't know why God has ordained the 'first cause' but He ordains all things. .... Now from EG's point of view I assume (now don't call me a liar EG, I said I ASSUME to be correct if I am wrong but not be calling me a liar ... on second thought, let's not use EG. Let's call him Jack. Jack see this episode as EG being the 'first cause' and his free will being the director of the cause. Jack doesn't understand that the source of any first cause must be eternal as Nothing comes from Nothing, but that is a story for another day)

Aside: We have a 5 year plan to bring you over to the dark (Reformed) side

Good thoughts, and thank you.

After offering an olive branch and time for @eternally-gratefull to admit, apologize, and repent of calling others and myself a liar, he desires to remain unrepentant. I went as far as offering to do this privately as well but this was refused. I made this offer of reconciliation for several days, and there are many witnesses.

I have proven his teachings to be true which he denied, and the end result was his name calling and accusations, saying I was lying about what he teaches, which accusations were in the end proven unfounded and unwarranted.

Looking through the pages of his interactions and history, this behavior is unfortunately a track record and practice of his, generally against Reformed, deniers of OSAS or any random person who disagrees with his teachings and offers a biblical refutation.

My attempts to get him to own his actions, repent, apologize and reconcile have been rejected by him. Sadly Scripture shows what we are to do with an unrepentant person who claims to be a believer. That's where I will leave him.

"Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him,
and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”​

#​

I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

#​

As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,
knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.


​

Any honest person can see and will again see that his behavior is anything but Christian and he will still practice this behavior until God brings him to repentance; 2 Peter 3:9.

My offer for him to acknowledge and repent unto reconciliation stands. Until that time, I will be obedient to Scripture as in the above and as indicated in other passages, and will leave him where he is.

 

[cv5]

No they did not trust in works in your name Lord we did this and that... seems like they were pretty good Christians to me

Nope. Fake Christians.....they are faking it. Tares. They are everywhere. Some seem to be easy to spot and some are not.

 

[EleventhHour]

Good thoughts, and thank you.

After offering an olive branch and time for @eternally-gratefull to admit, apologize, and repent of calling others and myself a liar, he desires to remain unrepentant. I went as far as offering to do this privately as well but this was refused. I made this offer of reconciliation for several days, and there are many witnesses.

I have proven his teachings to be true which he denied, and the end result was his name calling and accusations, saying I was lying about what he teaches, which accusations were in the end proven unfounded and unwarranted.

Looking through the pages of his interactions and history, this behavior is unfortunately a track record and practice of his, generally against Reformed, deniers of OSAS or any random person who disagrees with his teachings and offers a biblical refutation.

My attempts to get him to own his actions, repent, apologize and reconcile have been rejected by him. Sadly Scripture shows what we are to do with an unrepentant person who claims to be a believer. That's where I will leave him.

"Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him,
and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”​

#​

I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

#​

As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,
knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.


​

Any honest person can see and will again see that his behavior is anything but Christian and he will still practice this behavior until God brings him to repentance; 2 Peter 3:9.

My offer for him to acknowledge and repent unto reconciliation stands. Until that time, I will be obedient to Scripture as in the above and as indicated in other passages, and will leave him where he is.

Still wondering when you are going to apply this to "yourself" and apologize to @Lightskin for calling him a drunkard?

 

[preacher4truth]

This being a Not by Works thread it needs to stay on track and get back on track:

I love the passage of 2 Timothy 1:8-9 which deals with this issue, and is seldom used (compared to more popular passages) to prove we are saved by grace minus any deed(s) we have done:

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God,
who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
​

The word rendered "works" here can be understood as effort, or any deed we have done. There is absolutely no deed we can do to garner grace or God's attention to save us. None. There are some who do teach contrary to this as witnessed of late in this very thread.

The fact is God saved us by grace, and this grace was not given due to anything we've done whatsoever. Some have taught that the reason God saves us is because he saw we would choose him. Yet that would fall under a deed, something man has done, effort, work, and in the end is nothing less than a meritorious act.

But this is not true to the Gospel of grace: He has saved us by grace, and not due to any deed we have done whatsoever.

Let's keep the Gospel 100% by grace. Let's not corrupt it with man made teachings and traditions which turn it into merit, based on something, or anything, done by man.

Salvation is by grace, it is never by merit. Grace needs to be understood, loved, studied, it is unmerited favor.

We all need to adjust our Gospels, and be relentless to keep it pure, and make it subjective to the word of God only, giving him all the glory, never claiming any deed of ours as having facilitated salvation, or as any cause to why he saved us.

His election and salvation, the reason and the cause are summed up beautifully in 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 where nothing in man is discussed. But there are these three beautiful words; "Because of him..."

 

[jackrosie]

Good thoughts, and thank you.

After offering an olive branch and time for @eternally-gratefull to admit, apologize, and repent of calling others and myself a liar, he desires to remain unrepentant. I went as far as offering to do this privately as well but this was refused. I made this offer of reconciliation for several days, and there are many witnesses.

I have proven his teachings to be true which he denied, and the end result was his name calling and accusations, saying I was lying about what he teaches, which accusations were in the end proven unfounded and unwarranted.

Looking through the pages of his interactions and history, this behavior is unfortunately a track record and practice of his, generally against Reformed, deniers of OSAS or any random person who disagrees with his teachings and offers a biblical refutation.

My attempts to get him to own his actions, repent, apologize and reconcile have been rejected by him. Sadly Scripture shows what we are to do with an unrepentant person who claims to be a believer. That's where I will leave him.

"Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him,
and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”​

#​

I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

#​

As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,
knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.


​

Any honest person can see and will again see that his behavior is anything but Christian and he will still practice this behavior until God brings him to repentance; 2 Peter 3:9.

My offer for him to acknowledge and repent unto reconciliation stands. Until that time, I will be obedient to Scripture as in the above and as indicated in other passages, and will leave him where he is.

Repent to you???.........are you being serious??.....are you God?.....I think not!!...I struggle around people like you....I may have to repent to God later.....as my thoughts are pretty uncoloured at the moment,reading your words!

 

[mailmandan]

Nope. Fake Christians.....they are faking it. Tares. They are everywhere. Some seem to be easy to spot and some are not.

There are genuine Christians and there are “nominal” Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

 

[stonesoffire]

There are genuine Christians and there are “nominal” Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

There’s a scripture coming to me....about leaving them alone unless the shoots are pulled up with the roots. Does this fit?

 

[stonesoffire]

And it’s always best to find what’s being revealed...

Mat 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:


Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.


Mat 15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?


Mat 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.


Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Now, the quandary.....let them alone? They persecute. Perhaps this is an identification.

 

[EleventhHour]

This being a Not by Works thread it needs to stay on track and get back on track:

I love the passage of 2 Timothy 1:8-9 which deals with this issue, and is seldom used (compared to more popular passages) to prove we are saved by grace minus any deed(s) we have done:

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God,
who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
​

The word rendered "works" here can be understood as effort, or any deed we have done. There is absolutely no deed we can do to garner grace or God's attention to save us. None. There are some who do teach contrary to this as witnessed of late in this very thread.

The fact is God saved us by grace, and this grace was not given due to anything we've done whatsoever. Some have taught that the reason God saves us is because he saw we would choose him. Yet that would fall under a deed, something man has done, effort, work, and in the end is nothing less than a meritorious act.

But this is not true to the Gospel of grace: He has saved us by grace, and not due to any deed we have done whatsoever.

Let's keep the Gospel 100% by grace. Let's not corrupt it with man made teachings and traditions which turn it into merit, based on something, or anything, done by man.

Salvation is by grace, it is never by merit. Grace needs to be understood, loved, studied, it is unmerited favor.

We all need to adjust our Gospels, and be relentless to keep it pure, and make it subjective to the word of God only, giving him all the glory, never claiming any deed of ours as having facilitated salvation, or as any cause to why he saved us.

His election and salvation, the reason and the cause are summed up beautifully in 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 where nothing in man is discussed. But there are these three beautiful words; "Because of him..."

Well then you want to converse,dialogue....... how about you reply to my posts or are only some privy to your favour?

 

[EleventhHour]

Some have taught that the reason God saves us is because he saw we would choose him. Yet that would fall under a deed, something man has done, effort, work, and in the end is nothing less than a meritorious act.

Can you show me a scripture that states believing in Jesus for salvation... as in yielding to Him is a meritorious work in God's view?

Also, can you show me a scripture that states grace is "irresistible" ........this is really the crux of your entire system so make a case for it.

 

[DorothyMae]

But the point is that these guys were never saved to begin with. Jesus never knew them. He never gave them a new heart and made them a new creation in Him.

So this passage cannot be used to say we can lose our so ship, or Salvation.

Jesus didn’t say the reason he rejected their calling him Lord was because he had never given them a new heart. I don’t deny that plays a role perhaps. But that was not a reason he mentioned. The reasons were that they were lawless and they had no relationship with him. Those are the reasons he gave. Maybe it’s better to stick to what he said the reasons will be.

 

[DorothyMae]

love mercy...

We could continue this. But


“he who loves me...”
“blessed are the merciful...”

We have an important role to play

 

[mailmandan]

There’s a scripture coming to me....about leaving them alone unless the shoots are pulled up with the roots. Does this fit?

In regards to make believers, Matthew 15:13 fits.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Good day sir

1. nothing my my post insists that a person was chosen by their own power of comming to faith,
2. the argument that was being “proven” by this so called quote was that god chose me based on the fact I CHOSE him, nothing in that post said I chose god, saying “I chose god” and saying ” I have faith in God“ is two different things, and to say otherwise is dishonest, this is where bearing false witness comes in

I think you are extending an 'olive leaf', I am willing to reciprocate though I am sure I will get flack from @preacher4truth and @Sackcloth-N-Ashes. To those two I say I am probably being foolish but I will try one more time. Hmmmm ... suppose to try 70 times 7, but I am only good for two ... lol .... guess I am proposing future sin (hmmm) ... well, I am a weak Christian in this area....lol. Hmmm, 70 X 7 = 490 minus 2 ... looks like I am 488 short

Dude (said in a friendly manner) ... I am willing to respond to you if you so desire, but on two conditions
1) I apologize to you for whatever it was that upset you. I honestly don't know what it was, but I assure you I did not purposely lie and although I apologize, it is NOT FOR LYING as I did not do that (at least not intentionally).
2) Don't call me a liar or insinuate I lie again. I don't need the hassle. If I say something that you don't agree with, just point it out. Don't assume I am lying. I am just doing my best; I'm not out to 'get you' on a personal basis (unless you attack me personally as I suck at turning the other cheek to many times). I will attack your opinions I disagree with and you are free to attack mine vigorously; just no personal condemnations.

That being said, I propose a 1 week cooling off period ...
.... and I will take down the dart board with your picture on it (j/k)

Aside: I am not a strong enough Christian to try again after this

 

[jackrosie]

We could continue this. But


“he who loves me...”
“blessed are the merciful...”

We have an important role to play

Do tell...what our important role is to play?....is that before or after one is saved?

 

[preacher4truth]

I am sure I will get flack from @preacher4truth and @Sackcloth-N-Ashes.

Nope, and you probably should have left the above out of your post. I'm not against seeking reconciliation and repentance, knowing SNA, neither is he. I'm certain you're aware of this by now.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Short answer: NO, as least not on my part.

Longer answer:
I tried giving EG the benefit of the doubt. @preacher4truth and @Sackcloth-N-Ashes said EG kept calling them liars. Then low and behold EG calls me a liar. It let is go. Then EG calls me a liar a second time. I'm not Columbo, but seems to be a pattern here.

You have your CAUSE and EFFECT mixed up IMO.

The CAUSE is EG calling people liars
The EFFECT is calling EG out on it
The common denominator is EG calling liars people who disagree with EG
Further circumstantial proof: We disagree with you as much as EG. We treat you civilly and I am thankful you are civil.

So, if I have the CAUSE and EFFECT correct, then EFFECT (us called him out un-Christian like behaviour) would stop when the CAUSE (EG calling us liars) stops. (Aside: The is an example of the Reformed concept of 'first' and 'second causes'. The 'first cause' is God permitting EG to call us liars. The 'second cause' is for EG to call us liars. Another 'second cause' is for us to respond to EG. I don't know why God has ordained the 'first cause' but He ordains all things. .... Now from EG's point of view I assume (now don't call me a liar EG, I said I ASSUME to be correct if I am wrong but not be calling me a liar ... on second thought, let's not use EG. Let's call him Jack. Jack see this episode as EG being the 'first cause' and his free will being the director of the cause. Jack doesn't understand that the source of any first cause must be eternal as Nothing comes from Nothing, but that is a story for another day)

Aside: We have a 5 year plan to bring you over to the dark (Reformed) side

You do not seem to get it
preacher4truth claimed eg states EG believes god only chooses those who chose him

If EG believes this. They would be correct but EG does not believe this and never has claimed to say this. They also have been shown BY EG that what they’re claiming is not true. So when they continue to make the accusation. It becomes a LIE

You teach God chooses others because they chose him. You then teach he chose you because you chose him, making you special for doing so, which merited him choosing you.

That is merit, not grace.

.

I never said that
I did Not chose god he chose me...

and later after having been accused again, responded with this.

One more time
WE DO NOT BELIEVE THIS
you continue to break gods commandments while judging others just proves your hypocrisy

YThen this was used as so called proof I did say what P4T said

Re:
Eternally-gratefull said:
God said I will go and pay for sin, and these people who will come to faith and ask me to save them, I chose or elect to save.

Instead of asking, WHY did these people come. what brought them to Christ, Did they really chose Christ. or did they chose the gift in faith? (WHich is what I believe)

I got this remark
_______________________________

LOL .... just flows naturally rolls off the tongue. God says, I chose to elect those who elect Me.

1 It was an inflammatory remark, whether you think so or not. You were in affect mocking me with your words
2. it was based off what you THINK was said, not what I actually said
3. Considering all the times I showed what I really believed, It is a LIE (whether a lie in ignorance or a willingly known lie does not matter)
4. I called you out on it and will continually call you or anyone else out on it who continues to insist I believe God chose me based on the fact I chose him, WHICH IS A LIE!!!

Once again..

1. I DID NOT CHOSE CHRIST HE CHOSE ME
2. HE CHOSE BASED ON THE GOSPEL. of which I CHOSE TO RECIEVE THAT GOSPEL HE OFFERED AND HAVE IT APPLIED TO ME'
3. I CAME TO FAITH BECAUSE GOD DREW ME, CONVICTED ME AND TAUGHT ME HIS TRUTH. NOT OF MY OWN POWER
4. I CHOSE SALVATION. BASED ON THAT GIFT.

if you continue to insist otherwise, well then that is a major problem

 

[PennEd]

Jesus didn’t say the reason he rejected their calling him Lord was because he had never given them a new heart. I don’t deny that plays a role perhaps. But that was not a reason he mentioned. The reasons were that they were lawless and they had no relationship with him. Those are the reasons he gave. Maybe it’s better to stick to what he said the reasons will be.

They practiced lawlessness BECAUSE He NEVER knew them. As do all who He never knows.

 

[DorothyMae]

Do you think maybe it could be because the Father didn’t know where he was? The point was that the Son never lost his Sonship. And all was restored to him when he returned. True?

The Father never went after him when he could have. Of course he welcomed him back. What else would he do??

Even you admit he has to return to regain sonship.