Mega Church or No Name Church

[Scribe]

300K Is a princely sum. You would have to be the worst money manager in the world to find that inadequate. This business about "bringing in millions" is disturbing. All of that money belongs to the ministry effort.

How about we take the median salary of the congregation, and double it? That would probably bring us to about 150K?

As for the book sales, you can easily argue that the pastor is doing this on "company time", And that the pastor may perhaps by accorded a portion of the sales not all of them.

I know that it is not supposed to be about the man or the personality but if someone has a gift to plant a church and make it a mega church in a couple of years, you probably want to keep him around and not drive him off by not allowing him to get compensated a little better than 150K. Why make him tempted to just go somewhere else and do it over again? Maybe I am wrong but we should not make it harder than it needs to be. If you knew how much grief pastors have to endure you would understand that you are asking too much for such a low pay. The call to pastoring is not a call to riches, but neither is it a vow of poverty and miserable compensation. It is not like they have a 9-5, they are always on duty. Most are never going to make 150K but most are never going to have a megachurch. If they have the gift to plant and grow megachurches they should be rewarded. (within reason I agree) And 300K is probably going to be considered low if you can fill up a football stadium.

Concerning books it gets complicated. If it was the God given gifts of the pastor that made the church a mega church verses someone being brought into an existing mega church.
If the writer is the reason for the book sales and not the name of the church.
If the writer is going to not see the fruit of his labor, (and a great book can take years) then it would result in not writing until he is not a pastor of that church. This church owning the rights rule would result in less writing coming to the public.
Many who have a gift to write would choose to focus on writing INSTEAD and they should not have to choose between the two.

I lean toward the compensation structure being a salary that is based on results, but capped so that it cannot become a motivation of ministry.

 

[Scribe]

Okay. Well..... I will let someone far more eloquent than myself proclaim my opinion of Joel O'Steen.

I have not read that book. I have a feeling, just knowing a little bit about Joel Osteen that he is not saying that your best life is on earth as that speaker in the video was suggesting. I have a feeling that he is probably talking about not letting this life pass you by as you murmur and complain about what you can't do instead of getting up and doing something to change it.
But people are going to judge a book by its cover because people do have a natural habit of finding fault. I might not agree with what is in the book, I don't know yet, but I will not comment on it until I read it for myself.

I have a feeling I know what the book says and it will be along the same lines of all his other sermons.

My guess, and someone who has read it can tell me if I guessed it right or not, my guess is that it teaches people to not let life pass them by, to seize opportunities and make life work for you through starting your own business or making a plan and working the plan, things like that. If that is not what it says, we need more books that do teach that. Too many people are simply complaining about their lot in life when they can actually change it over a few years if they make a plan and work the plan. Too many Christians are not living a good example of work ethic and are could use some motivational books to get them out of a dead end job into a career that will support their wife and two toddlers that barely have money for diapers. Do something about it! Maybe a book called Do Something Different Now to Have a Better Life! That title would have been more acceptable I suppose.

 

[Relic]

You can feel lost in a big church. I would love to find a GOOD small church.

 

[Relic]

That's the way, it is easier to make friends and fellowship

 

[cv5]

I have not read that book. I have a feeling, just knowing a little bit about Joel Osteen that he is not saying that your best life is on earth as that speaker in the video was suggesting. I have a feeling that he is probably talking about not letting this life pass you by as you murmur and complain about what you can't do instead of getting up and doing something to change it.
But people are going to judge a book by its cover because people do have a natural habit of finding fault. I might not agree with what is in the book, I don't know yet, but I will not comment on it until I read it for myself.

I have a feeling I know what the book says and it will be along the same lines of all his other sermons.

My guess, and someone who has read it can tell me if I guessed it right or not, my guess is that it teaches people to not let life pass them by, to seize opportunities and make life work for you through starting your own business or making a plan and working the plan, things like that. If that is not what it says, we need more books that do teach that. Too many people are simply complaining about their lot in life when they can actually change it over a few years if they make a plan and work the plan. Too many Christians are not living a good example of work ethic and are could use some motivational books to get them out of a dead end job into a career that will support their wife and two toddlers that barely have money for diapers. Do something about it! Maybe a book called Do Something Different Now to Have a Better Life! That title would have been more acceptable I suppose.

I think you may have missed the point. Joel O'Steen is of the prosperity gospel ilk. He may be not as hard-core as some of the others, but there is no doubt it all that he is preaching a false gospel. The man is presently damned, and it is entirely likely his entire following. In my opinion legitimate Christians will always always leave a bogus Church. Sooner or later, But always.

 

[Scribe]

I think you may have missed the point. Joel O'Steen is of the prosperity gospel ilk. He may be not as hard-core as some of the others, but there is no doubt it all that he is preaching a false gospel. The man is presently damned, and it is entirely likely his entire following. In my opinion legitimate Christians will always always leave a bogus Church. Sooner or later, But always.

You say that he is. I have not heard him myself so I will reserve judgment.

 

[Guojing]

I have not read that book. I have a feeling, just knowing a little bit about Joel Osteen that he is not saying that your best life is on earth as that speaker in the video was suggesting. I have a feeling that he is probably talking about not letting this life pass you by as you murmur and complain about what you can't do instead of getting up and doing something to change it.
But people are going to judge a book by its cover because people do have a natural habit of finding fault. I might not agree with what is in the book, I don't know yet, but I will not comment on it until I read it for myself.

I have a feeling I know what the book says and it will be along the same lines of all his other sermons.

My guess, and someone who has read it can tell me if I guessed it right or not, my guess is that it teaches people to not let life pass them by, to seize opportunities and make life work for you through starting your own business or making a plan and working the plan, things like that. If that is not what it says, we need more books that do teach that. Too many people are simply complaining about their lot in life when they can actually change it over a few years if they make a plan and work the plan. Too many Christians are not living a good example of work ethic and are could use some motivational books to get them out of a dead end job into a career that will support their wife and two toddlers that barely have money for diapers. Do something about it! Maybe a book called Do Something Different Now to Have a Better Life! That title would have been more acceptable I suppose.

It depends on how acceptable you are of the latest discoveries in neuroscience and quantum physics.

Actually they are all hinted in the Bible too, with verses like "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he."

So if you view it positively, you would ask, "Why should all these be for the secular world and not for Christianity when the truths were already all in Scripture"?

 

[Scribe]

Certainly you can get to know everyone in a small church and you cannot get to know everyone in a large church. But can you

It depends on how acceptable you are of the latest discoveries in neuroscience and quantum physics.

Actually they are all hinted in the Bible too, with verses like "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he."

So if you view it positively, you would ask, "Why should all these be for the secular world and not for Christianity when the truths were already all in Scripture"?

I know what your saying and I agree that Christians need to learn how to be successful in life. Books are available for that and they should read them if they need them. However I also agree that a pastor should be preaching the whole counsel of God and his message should be producing that emphasis on eternity and preaching the gospel to the lost as our mission in life rather than having success in business as an end itself. These things can be balanced and I think they probably are in many churches that get accused of prosperity message simply becuase the pastor is trying to teach people to quit whining and do something about their finances. He is a shepherd and if his church is full of whiners he probably needs to teach of few of those classes. But not every single message.

Now concerning the interpretation of "As a man thinketh in his hearth, so is he" That one has been used to teach something that might be true but is not the message of that verse. That always bugs me. Why a teacher will take that verse and not explain what Solomon intended based on the context instead of an entirely different meaning than Solomon intended.

When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee:

2 And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite.

3 Be not desirous of his dainties: for they are deceitful meat.

4 Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom.

5 Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.

6 Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:

7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

8 The morsel which thou hast eaten shalt thou vomit up, and lose thy sweet words.

This man is not thinking hospitality toward you, He may seem like he is being nice, but in his heart he is thinking ill toward you.
As a man thinks in his heart... that is who he really is.. not the nice words he give you.

This scripture was never intended to teach postive thinking and imagining success and all the other things it has been used to teach and I cringe when I hear a preacher do it because I wonder why he is not convicted. I assume it is because he does not know, because to know what it means and to use it for another purpose is too wicked for me to comprehend. Who would do That? That would be willfully adulterating the word to teach your own thoughts and agenda.

 

[Guojing]

Certainly you can get to know everyone in a small church and you cannot get to know everyone in a large church. But can you


I know what your saying and I agree that Christians need to learn how to be successful in life. Books are available for that and they should read them if they need them. However I also agree that a pastor should be preaching the whole counsel of God and his message should be producing that emphasis on eternity and preaching the gospel to the lost as our mission in life rather than having success in business as an end itself. These things can be balanced and I think they probably are in many churches that get accused of prosperity message simply becuase the pastor is trying to teach people to quit whining and do something about their finances. He is a shepherd and if his church is full of whiners he probably needs to teach of few of those classes. But not every single message.

Now concerning the interpretation of "As a man thinketh in his hearth, so is he" That one has been used to teach something that might be true but is not the message of that verse. That always bugs me. Why a teacher will take that verse and not explain what Solomon intended based on the context instead of an entirely different meaning than Solomon intended.

When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee:

2 And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite.

3 Be not desirous of his dainties: for they are deceitful meat.

4 Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom.

5 Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.

6 Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:

7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

8 The morsel which thou hast eaten shalt thou vomit up, and lose thy sweet words.

This man is not thinking hospitality toward you, He may seem like he is being nice, but in his heart he is thinking ill toward you.
As a man thinks in his heart... that is who he really is.. not the nice words he give you.

This scripture was never intended to teach postive thinking and imagining success and all the other things it has been used to teach and I cringe when I hear a preacher do it because I wonder why he is not convicted. I assume it is because he does not know, because to know what it means and to use it for another purpose is too wicked for me to comprehend. Who would do That? That would be willfully adulterating the word to teach your own thoughts and agenda.

Interesting, thanks for showing the context.

So you are saying you believe God did not meant for us to ever think that our thoughts can ever create our reality?

 

[Scribe]

Interesting, thanks for showing the context.

So you are saying you believe God did not meant for us to ever think that our thoughts can ever create our reality?

Thinking that you can change your circumstances in life is the first step in the right direction.

Thinking and believing and dreaming alone will not get you there.

You must still make a plan and work that plan.

If you want to increase your paycheck make a plan on how to do that by things like learning a high paying skill. A 5 year plan can get many people who have felonies and no college degree currently making minimum wage, into a $40 - $60 dollar an hour job if they will work the plan.
Thinking that you can do as well as the people who have already done it, is important to stay motivated, but you still have to work the plan. The plan includes education, study, practice, experience, and getting in front of the people who have the authority to hire you. If one lets their negative thoughts about having a felony or no college education keep them from even trying they will stay in poverty.

So yes the Thought life of "I can change my circumstances" "I will trust God to get me a job even with a felony" this kind of thinking is important but the working the plan is even more important.

This is not the Gospel but neither is it false teaching. If a pastor is teaching this because he has a large group of believers who came out of drugs and addiction and a long list of arrests and are all tatted up and thinking they can only get warehouse jobs or work construction the rest of their lives their thinking is going to need to be changed and it will require these kinds of classes that are practical.

A positive confession without working a plan is just an obnoxious personality.

 

[Guojing]

Thinking that you can change your circumstances in life is the first step in the right direction.

Thinking and believing and dreaming alone will not get you there.

You must still make a plan and work that plan.

If you want to increase your paycheck make a plan on how to do that by things like learning a high paying skill. A 5 year plan can get many people who have felonies and no college degree currently making minimum wage, into a $40 - $60 dollar an hour job if they will work the plan.
Thinking that you can do as well as the people who have already done it, is important to stay motivated, but you still have to work the plan. The plan includes education, study, practice, experience, and getting in front of the people who have the authority to hire you. If one lets their negative thoughts about having a felony or no college education keep them from even trying they will stay in poverty.

So yes the Thought life of "I can change my circumstances" "I will trust God to get me a job even with a felony" this kind of thinking is important but the working the plan is even more important.

This is not the Gospel but neither is it false teaching. If a pastor is teaching this because he has a large group of believers who came out of drugs and addiction and a long list of arrests and are all tatted up and thinking they can only get warehouse jobs or work construction the rest of their lives their thinking is going to need to be changed and it will require these kinds of classes that are practical.

A positive confession without working a plan is just an obnoxious personality.

So what do you think of Paul point in Galatians 3?

If the greatest blessing of our life, salvation, was based on believing without working, will the lesser blessings require one to work?

I mean I see your point and I understand where you are coming from. You are saying believing is the necessary first step correct?

 

[Scribe]

So what do you think of Paul point in Galatians 3?

If the greatest blessing of our life, salvation, was based on believing without working, will the lesser blessings require one to work?

I mean I see your point and I understand where you are coming from. You are saying believing is the necessary first step correct?

It is not the same subject. I was not talking about soteriology. You don't even have to be saved to improve your life by thinking that you can and making a plan and working a plan. This kind of teaching in church is fine for instructing people to improve their finances and yet it has nothing to do with salvation.

Those books that talk about thinking your way to success are about having a positive attitude that you can get from where you are today to where you want to be by doing something about it.

Anyone teaching that you can just imagine prosperity and suddenly you will get checks in the mail is a false teacher making things up.

 

[pottersclay]

Full disclosure: I am not affiliated with any church.

I am fully aware that of the verses that mention churches so none need be required here.
The one I am connected with is fifteen people, somewhat like the early church when the
new Christians went to temple and then broke bread at a home. There isn't a leader and
never will be because it will open a danger to create a cult. We read scripture every
Sunday and instead of sermons we do each do a random short scripture. Then we discuss
have discussion about them. No winners or losers just getting closer and closer to the
one Commandment of Jesus; Love the Lord Your heart and your neighbor as yourself and
obviously that is our only Commandment since that is what scripture says. So we rely
on scripture as written. Christ gave us all the ingredients to journey to His mansion.
And all the ingredient for loving everyone in this life. That is all we need. We don't
need big building money grabbers or preachers with agendas. All of that is totally un
unnecessary. It brings up something that Jesus mentioned on money changers. Also
we see each church as little cults, if you don't follow and toe the line, you are gone.
For us it is Our Lord Jesus Christ, no third party necessary.

Sorry saint sounds like you and the others feel like misfits and started your own fellowship.
Truth of the matter is if you see the other churches as cults you have no love for the brethren.
Seems like you and the others are seeking a comfort zone for whatever reason.

 

[Guojing]

It is not the same subject. I was not talking about soteriology. You don't even have to be saved to improve your life by thinking that you can and making a plan and working a plan. This kind of teaching in church is fine for instructing people to improve their finances and yet it has nothing to do with salvation.

Those books that talk about thinking your way to success are about having a positive attitude that you can get from where you are today to where you want to be by doing something about it.

Anyone teaching that you can just imagine prosperity and suddenly you will get checks in the mail is a false teacher making things up.

Just to clarify, you do believe that salvation is by just believing in 1 Cor 15:1-4 correct?

 

[Scribe]

Just to clarify, you do believe that salvation is by just believing in 1 Cor 15:1-4 correct?

Of course and to add to that from the same speaker.
Acts 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,

21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Diakonos]

our tithe is someone bring donuts and someone els

I think it is generous of those people that bring those things like snacks for others. I am also ok with not forcing people to tithe (because it is not mandatory, but rather an invitation to trust the Lord).
What I don't agree with is when people calling anything other than 10% of their income a "tithe". You can call that an offering of a gift, but by definition, a tithe is 10% of a person's income. That's why they call it tithes and offerings...because some people don't meet the amount of a tithe, some tithe, and some tithe + more (their offering).

 

[Mii]

In my opinion legitimate Christians will always always leave a bogus Church. Sooner or later, But always.

This statement gets a solid agreement from me. Mirrors my heart on the issue exactly. The process is almost always different, but I personally love hearing testimonies of that sort of thing

I do get concerned when someone is sort of caught up in something like that, and I am learning to be more patient and less "anxious" about it and trust that the Lord will take care of it.

 

[Chester]

And here is the problem I have with so call non denomination churches.
Each has a different spin of Scripture and most have come out of a denomination and brought all their beliefs with them.
There are several in my area and each is as different as day and night.

Most non-denominational groups I know are, like you mention, spinoffs or splits from some denomination. The people tend to be reactive, sometimes bitter, and often dogmatically against anything to do with denominations. That is bad; not good at all.

But I think we need to be careful then to just label all non-denominational groups that way. If we do, we are guilty of the same thing we are accusing them of: being overreactive and maybe even bigrotry.

So lets just judge every group by the Scriptural principles of love and truth.

 

[Chester]

Great. So they can quit playing pretend, and quit embarrassing themselves and me with the bogus speaking in tongues, the bizarre falling down and shaking, the bogus healings and so on and so forth.

BTW, As soon as I found a Church that DID demonstrate legitimate tongues and various other miraculous gifts, I would quit my job move to that city and attend that Church! No problemo.

I could give you a church and a city to move to, but I am not sure this would work out . . .!!!!!!!!!!!

And it is not my church, nor in my city, nor do I speak publicly in tongues . . .

But if you visited this church and your vehicle quit, they might pray for it instead of calling a mechanic . . .

 

[cv5]

I could give you a church and a city to move to, but I am not sure this would work out . . .!!!!!!!!!!!

And it is not my church, nor in my city, nor do I speak publicly in tongues . . .

I said legitimate. As in provable, reliably demonstrated etc. Which of course includes videos being recorded for proof, with which we can review the phenomena.

The miracles during the formation of the early Church were orchestrated in such a way that they were meant to be witnessed an provable beyond all refutation. So that is the standard that must be met and what I am asking for, no less.