"Antichrist": Broad Deception By Narrow Definition

[GaryA]

"I promise you the Holy Spirit was not involved in the 'rebirth' of Pagan Rome into Papal Rome."

 

[GaryA]

Only in Gary's world could they mean something different.

I am a little surprised to see you say something like this [in this context].

I am pretty sure you do not believe that the RCC is "indwelt by the Holy Spirit"...???

(Perhaps you were just not paying close-enough attention to the conversation?)

 

[Phoneman-777]

I am in agreement with this statement. It illustrates the transformation of the Roman 'State' into the Roman 'Church'. When Rome "fell", it did not actually "die" - it merely "changed form"...

Papal Rome was Pagan Rome "reborn" (an evil rebirth).

Amen! That's why 17th century philosopher Thomas Hobbes wrote in "Leviathan" the famous quote:
"And if a man consider the (origin) of this great ecclesiastical dominion, he will easily perceive that the papacy is no other than the ghost of the deceased Roman Empire, sitting crowned upon the grave thereof..."

 

[Scribe]

Amen! That's why 17th century philosopher Thomas Hobbes wrote in "Leviathan" the famous quote:
"And if a man consider the (origin) of this great ecclesiastical dominion, he will easily perceive that the papacy is no other than the ghost of the deceased Roman Empire, sitting crowned upon the grave thereof..."

But who gives them any credibility today? Things have changed. No one would give their government to them today. This all looked like a possibility at the time of the reformation but now they are just a powerless religious remnant of tradition with empty buildings and accumulated wealth that is dwindling by the decade. They are closing and selling off properties and have very little influence today.

 

[DWR]

But who gives them any credibility today? Things have changed. No one would give their government to them today. This all looked like a possibility at the time of the reformation but now they are just a powerless religious remnant of tradition with empty buildings and accumulated wealth that is dwindling by the decade. They are closing and selling off properties and have very little influence today.

A non player in end time events.

 

[Phoneman-777]

But who gives them any credibility today? Things have changed. No one would give their government to them today. This all looked like a possibility at the time of the reformation but now they are just a powerless religious remnant of tradition with empty buildings and accumulated wealth that is dwindling by the decade. They are closing and selling off properties and have very little influence today.

A million voices from the past will not be silenced, if I can help it. Bro, for centuries the ENTIRE PROTESTANT WORLD wrote countless volumes in defense of Historicism, and this alone warrants investigation of this idea, while your Futurist ideas were almost unknown until yesterday, comparatively.

You have no idea of the massive influence the Papacy has today, brother, and I say that kindly. The reason you do not is because you're not paying attention. The devil is not going to come out and say, "Hey guys, look over here." To the contrary, what is going on, if possible, would "deceive even the very elect". The Papacy controls Secret Societies and their members run world governments, banking elite, and control Apostate Protestantism by virtue of the WCC, UTS, Interfaith/Ecumenical Movements, etc. I'm sure you're familiar with the extremely popular Non-Denominational series called "Alpha", right, which is designed to introduce people to Jesus? The people behind it have stated its main purpose is to "soften up fundamentalist Christianity to accept the Eucharist". The cool thing about this series is that the speaker simply quotes what these Luciferians themselves confess to be up to:

 

[GaryA]

But who gives them any credibility today? Things have changed. No one would give their government to them today. This all looked like a possibility at the time of the reformation but now they are just a powerless religious remnant of tradition with empty buildings and accumulated wealth that is dwindling by the decade. They are closing and selling off properties and have very little influence today.

A non player in end time events.

I never imagined that there was a large deep sand dune in the back of a long deep cave at the bottom of a dark deep ocean - into which someone could bury their head.

But - apparently there is...

Sorry guys -- but - your perceptions of the RCC are in extreme error.

 

[Phoneman-777]

I never imagined that there was a large deep sand dune in the back of a long deep cave at the bottom of a dark deep ocean - into which someone could bury their head.

But - apparently there is...

Sorry guys -- but - your perceptions of the RCC are in extreme error.

I call it "Ecclesiastical Stockholm Syndrome" where those trapped in Jesuit eschatological lies not only sympathize with their captors but defend their unBiblical claims.

 

[Scribe]

I call it "Ecclesiastical Stockholm Syndrome" where those trapped in Jesuit eschatological lies not only sympathize with their captors but defend their unBiblical claims.

Do you kiss your mama with that mouth?

 

[TruthSeekerJG]

Whatever position we take scripture is clear that being right with God is the vital issue we should be concerned about above anything else. We should take each day at a time not spend our lives fretting about these things. None of us know whether the present day will be our last. .

I agree, but it's not based on works. We need to look to God and trust in Him through Yeshua; at the same time we need to stand up for truth and righteousness. To expose the works of darkness and deception, which Yeshua warned us of in Matthew 24, including the Epistles that were written by the Apostles. Not only that, but in the Tanakh.

If someone is headed off the cliff, don't we want to warn them for their safety?

(Ezekiel 33:6) But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the shofar, so that the people are not warned; and then the sword comes and takes any one of them, that one is indeed taken away in his guilt, but I will hold the watchman responsible for his death.'

The pre-tribulation rapture is not an issue for academic debate, it's a deception that we need to be aware of. Because if believers aren't aware or don't consider the things to come (which is given in the Tanakh and the New Testament), then we will be caught off guard.

This is exactly what the Prophets did: to warn their people of what was coming. We can look at the history.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Do you kiss your mama with that mouth?

LOL, you crackin me up with that one, bro! Love ya

 

[Scribe]

I agree, but it's not based on works. We need to look to God and trust in Him through Yeshua; at the same time we need to stand up for truth and righteousness. To expose the works of darkness and deception, which Yeshua warned us of in Matthew 24, including the Epistles that were written by the Apostles. Not only that, but in the Tanakh.

If someone is headed off the cliff, don't we want to warn them for their safety?

(Ezekiel 33:6) But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the shofar, so that the people are not warned; and then the sword comes and takes any one of them, that one is indeed taken away in his guilt, but I will hold the watchman responsible for his death.'

The pre-tribulation rapture is not an issue for academic debate, it's a deception that we need to be aware of. Because if believers aren't aware or don't consider the things to come (which is given in the Tanakh and the New Testament), then we will be caught off guard.

This is exactly what the Prophets did: to warn their people of what was coming. We can look at the history.

The pre tribulation interpretation teaches people to live holy lives ready for the coming of the Lord at any moment. When I read the New Testament I get the understanding that being ready, watching and looking for His Appearing is about living sober, holy lives. A pre tribulation/wrath view does not cause one to not be ready. Thinking that you are waiting for the revelation of the Antichrist or the rebuilding of a temple, or any number of things that you believe that you will witness before the Lord comes is an interpretation that would be more likely to make one not be ready for the sudden appearance of the Lord. I am not saying who's interpretation is the right one, pre trib or post trib or mid trib but I am saying that pre trib would be the one that would be more likely to make on live Always ready. Ready for the coming of the Lord not Ready for the tribulation. The bible does not teach me to have a mindset of being ready to endure the things in the tribulation. It teaches me to be found worthy to escape these things, and it teaches me to be ready for the cry "The Bridegroom Cometh" but it does not teach me to hunker down and prepare for the tribulation. We look for His Appearing not for the two witnesses, or the 144k or the beast or the false prophet or the hail stones, we look for His Appearing. We live always ready for a sudden catching away that we be found in him blameless and without spot.

 

[Scribe]

A million voices from the past will not be silenced, if I can help it. Bro, for centuries the ENTIRE PROTESTANT WORLD wrote countless volumes in defense of Historicism, and this alone warrants investigation of this idea, while your Futurist ideas were almost unknown until yesterday, comparatively.

You have no idea of the massive influence the Papacy has today, brother, and I say that kindly. The reason you do not is because you're not paying attention. The devil is not going to come out and say, "Hey guys, look over here." To the contrary, what is going on, if possible, would "deceive even the very elect". The Papacy controls Secret Societies and their members run world governments, banking elite, and control Apostate Protestantism by virtue of the WCC, UTS, Interfaith/Ecumenical Movements, etc. I'm sure you're familiar with the extremely popular Non-Denominational series called "Alpha", right, which is designed to introduce people to Jesus? The people behind it have stated its main purpose is to "soften up fundamentalist Christianity to accept the Eucharist". The cool thing about this series is that the speaker simply quotes what these Luciferians themselves confess to be up to:

Well I call that post Eschatological Ecclesiastical Attention Deficit Disorder. The Alpha evangelism program? Really?

How do you interpret this prophecy?

Dan 11:37 He will not show regard for the gods of his fathers, the god desired by women, or for any other god, because he will magnify himself above all.

That does not sound like the Pope or his religion

 

[DWR]

I never imagined that there was a large deep sand dune in the back of a long deep cave at the bottom of a dark deep ocean - into which someone could bury their head.

But - apparently there is...

Sorry guys -- but - your perceptions of the RCC are in extreme error.

I never imagined that there was a large deep sand dune in the back of a long deep cave at the bottom of a dark deep ocean - into which someone could bury their head.

But - apparently there is...

Sorry guys -- but - your perceptions of the RCC are in extreme error.

Maybe you should study Daniel 7 and 8 and understand what part of the world the man of sin comes from.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Maybe you should study Daniel 7 and 8 and understand what part of the world the man of sin comes from.

The "Man of Sin" isn't mentioned in Daniel - it's 2 Thess. - unless you're counting "eyes like the eyes of man" as such. Nevertheless, the Little Horn Antichrist was prophesied to arise among the Ten Horns of the Fourth Beast which comes out of the "Great Sea" (which all recognize to be the Mediterranean Sea)...The Papal Antichrist arose among the Ten Barbarian nations which came out of the Fourth Empire, Rome.

 

[DWR]

The "Man of Sin" isn't mentioned in Daniel - it's 2 Thess. - unless you're counting "eyes like the eyes of man" as such. Nevertheless, the Little Horn Antichrist was prophesied to arise among the Ten Horns of the Fourth Beast which comes out of the "Great Sea" (which all recognize to be the Mediterranean Sea)...The Papal Antichrist arose among the Ten Barbarian nations which came out of the Fourth Empire, Rome.

If you will read Daniel 8 you will see that the man of sin-anti-Christ comes from the land conquered by Alexander the Great.

 

[GaryA]

One of the problems with interpreting End Times prophecy is the belief that the "Antichrist", the "man of sin", the "son of perdition", etc. (any, every, and all 'evil' characters/entities in the scriptures related to End Times prophecy) are all uniquely and identically the same - and, that it always refers to a specific individual human male (figure).

 

[DWR]

One of the problems with interpreting End Times prophecy is the belief that the "Antichrist", the "man of sin", the "son of perdition", etc. (any, every, and all 'evil' characters/entities in the scriptures related to End Times prophecy) are all uniquely and identically the same - and, that it always refers to a specific individual human male (figure).

There is an end time kingdom coming with one man leading it that is known by several names in Scripture.
Man of sin, son of predition, anti-christ, little horn, beast.
Many names, same man empowered by Satan.

It ain't complicated. No need to interpret. Just read and believe.

 

[TruthSeekerJG]

Hey Akwatukee,

Hope the Lord is giving you a good day. Alright, here we go lol

Paul wasn't warning the Thessalonians, he was comforting them. There were some there who were teaching that the Day of the Lord had already come, which is the time of God's wrath. The Thessalonians were writing to Paul because if the Day of the Lord had truly come, then they were concerned as to why they hadn't been caught up to meet the Lord in the air according to what Paul taught them. Paul comforts them by telling them that the Day of the Lord (the time of God's wrath) will not come until the apostasy takes place and the man of lawlessness is revealed. The comfort is that, the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him, will take place prior to the Day of the Lord.

I agree to most of the quote above, but... "prior to the Day of the Lord" is based on the assumption of the pre-trib rapture. This is being read into scripture, not scripture speaking for itself. The Day of the Lord is when we will be gathered up.

Where's scripture that said that the "appearing of the Lord" is separate from the "Day of the Lord?" Seems like this is the implication that is given in the quote above.

Where's scripture that said we will be gathered "prior to the Day of the Lord?"

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

It clearly said that the Day of the Lord ("that day") will not come, except the falling away (apostasy), and the man of sin be revealed.

After the abomination has been set up, She/Israel will flee out into the wilderness--which is the desolation-and will be cared for by God for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. The church, which again is made up of both Jew and Gentiles, is a separate entity from the unbelieving nation of Israel, both having different end-time programs.

I agree, the unbelieving nation of Israel is separate from the Body of Christ (Jew and Gentile believers). If we look at 2 Thessalonians 2:4, it speaks about the son of perdition sitting in the temple, which is the abomination of desolation.

So if the abomination of desolation is set up for the last 3 1/2 years of the 7 year period, then how is the Day of the Lord before the 7 year period when 2 Thess. 2:3-4 said otherwise?

Unless there's still the assumption that we will be taken up prior. If so, then give me scripture that supports that claim?

It is the unbelieving nation of Israel that God is going to deal with and who is in view in Matt.24 and Rev.12.

If Matt. 24 and Rev.12 is only delegated to the unbelieving nation of Israel, then who is John talking about in verse 17?

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 12:17)

Who is the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, AND has the testimony of Jesus? Meaning that they believe in Jesus.

Isn't the seed the Body of Christ (church)?

Galatians 3:28-29
(28) there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor freeman, neither male nor female; for in union with the Messiah Yeshua (Jesus), you are all one.
(29) Also, if you belong to the Messiah, you are seed of Avraham and heirs according to the promise.

If it isn't, what scripture said otherwise?

Speaking of Rev. 12, I think we're also ignoring what it said in Chapter 13.

Revelation 13:7-8
(7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
(8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I know you believe in the "tribulation saints," but it doesn't make sense that they would go through the Wrath of God, especially if you say that the Wrath consists of all the seals and trumpets, which would be a contradiction. Going around in circles in order to prove something that isn't scriptural.

You and others are not making a distinction between the common persecutions and tribulations which comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness vs. the coming unprecedented wrath of God. You're not understanding that the coming wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as being a specific period when God is going to be pouring out His wrath upon a Christ-rejecting world. This period of wrath, also known as 'the Day of the Lord' must take place prior to and continues right up to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age which is not meant for the church. Therefore, it will be no "slap in the face for all who have died in Christ" because they suffered because of their faith and not the wrath of God. It is important for you and others to distinguish between the two.

After that, the Day of the Lord will begin, the time of God's wrath, which will be initiated by the opening of the first seal, which is performed by the Lamb, Jesus Christ.

What scripture said that the Wrath of God encompasses the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls of "Wrath?" Otherwise it's a self conceived assumption that's being read into scripture.

If anything, it does mention the Day of the Wrath of God after the 6th seal is broken:

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Revelation 6:17)

The 7th trumpet also aligns with the Wrath that "is come" (KJV), or "has come" (CJB) in Rev. 11:18:

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

If the Wrath of God consists of all the seals, then why didn't they mention that at the beginning. Noticed your greek interpretation and it doesn't make sense when you look at the context of the opening of the seals as a whole, let alone verse 17 listed above. Which speaks about the "great day of his wrath is come," or "has come." Context!

I'll need a little more than a greek interpretation to change the whole context. Scripture please?
Otherwise it doesn't make sense...

It specifically said that the Wrath of God is poured out from bowls/or vials. Doesn't say that the seals and trumpets are poured out.

And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. (Revelation 16:1)

Man, I don't see how you can just crank these out fast, unless you just have it saved and just paste it. Might have to talk point by point. Specifically, where in scripture does it talk about pre-trib rapture? That's the root of all this. There's no clear scripture stating so, unless we use and twist other scriptures to fit that doctrine. Not only that, but simply changing a word can be dangerous. Exactly what the serpent did in the Garden of Eden.

Thankful that you believe that Jesus is God. Looking forward to your reply.

 

[GaryA]

Might have to talk point by point.

That is [generally] the best way...

(But - "good luck" getting Akwatukee to do that.)