We experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ.
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
We must understand how this can be true and yet it also be true that we lie if we say there is no sin in us. It must be that the work of Christ in us is so powerful that God considers us righteous.
So to summarize all scriptures brought up in these posts: We are made righteous through Christ. We are to live in that righteousness with the fruits of the spirit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. Through Christ that must be what the Lord sees in us. Through our will we are to make it manifest.
But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
(Romans 7:17)
no longer
notice that phrase? it implies that it once was the speaker who sins, but something changed.
want to take a stab at explaining that, since you say you have an abundantly clear and unbiased understanding of it?
what has changed?
@Micaiah-imla i'm going to say we clearly have a person who used to sin, but has become separated from their flesh so that if sin is henceforth found in them, it is no longer them who sins, but sin dwelling in their flesh.
you know of any process whereby a person can become separated from their flesh & serve the law of God in with their mind? ((v.25))
you ever heard of John 3:6? thank maybe that's relevant?
ya really think this person being described in chapter 7, whose life has become spirit & whose flesh having become, shall we say, crucified, has nothing to do with a person who has been "born again" ??
smh
are you saying you never sin, and are never even tempted to sin?
for the whole time since you first believed, or only after you became a 'super-christian' ?
This is what happened when you were in the flesh.
You continue to disregard Romans 7:5.
When you’re in the Spirit it is impossible to sin (Galatians 5:16).
I therefore walk in the Spirit to prevent sin from manifesting itself in my conduct. And when I get angry, I do not sin (Ephesians 4:26).
If this sounds outrageous to you, then you are wanting in biblical perception.
what is what happened when you were in the flesh?
you sinned? or you served God with your mind in the spirit?
awesome. Romans 7:13-25, just like Romans 7:1-12, is about a person who is no longer the one sinning.
so..
why you denying it? you really think it's an unregenerate man who no longer sins and who serves God by the spirit with his mind?
you're kinda mixing terms here. you said spirit, but then you said conduct, which is a thing of the flesh.
you are never / have never been tempted, at all, ever, since you believed?
is that what you're saying?
no, friend. it is in fact the central pin of my argument. Paul used to be in the flesh; he was Saul. that's verse 5. he's not any more; he is crucified with Christ ((ch.6)) and in the spirit. the desires of his flesh are no longer his own. it is his flesh that desires sin, not him. that's verse 17. desire for evil is sin, see the sermon on the mount. "each one is tempted" and is tempted by their own wicked desire, see James 1:14. anyone who says they are without sin is a liar, see 1 John 1:8.
so now you have a mystery to be resolved. Galatians 5:16 says you do not practice sin. 1 John 1:8 says you have sin. James says you have wicked desire, and Christ says wicked desire is sin even if it doesn't manifest itself in conduct. both Paul and John speak of regenerate believers. the mystery is explained in Romans 7 perfectly. it is no longer i, but sin dwelling in me -- a new creation born of spirit, inhabiting a tent of flesh while waiting for a place being prepared for them. in a creation which groans in expectation of exactly that final redemption, see Romans 8:19-23. therefore strive against your body and make it your slave, see 1 Corinthians 9:27.
would you mind to give me a clear answer about how you think this verse informs the one 12 verses after it, please?
the one where Paul says he no longer sins? the one you're trying to tell me is talking about an unregenerate sinner? the one which is specifically about being born again, which you're telling me no one born again has business identifying with?
i can tell you what this means, and i have been telling you what this means. would it not be fair for you to explain to me how this person in verse 17, who says they no longer sin, is an unredeemed sinner?
i really think you ought, because you said that i have false doctrine about this, and you said that you have the right doctrine. you also said you do not sin in your conduct, however if anyone has it in their hand to do good and does not do it, it is sin, and correcting false doctrine is good. so you are really going to look like an idiot if you don't correct me soon, while you say you **could**. i don't want that for you; if i can help you not to be an idiot, i should, because it would be sin for me if i don't when it was in my power to.
but salvation is not of works - it is by faith. it is not the promise of the law through Moses; it is grace and peace through Christ Jesus -- therefore there is no more condemnation in Him. because through Christ, tho my flesh serves the law of sin and death, my mind serves God through the Spirit. the body is dead because of sin, crucified with Him, in order that we might belong to another.
These struggles are not in the true believers. If they are, and the person continues to do the evil he doesn’t want to do, this is evidence that he has not truly experienced a conversion. Paul did not say that he was in this condition, he merely explained what happens when a person attemps to do good while in the flesh. He explained this in the first-person perspective.
This is not the case in a born again believer who walks after the Spirit as explained in Romans 8.
describe this 'born again believer' could you?
is he born of the spirit? is what's born of the spirit flesh, or is it spirit?
does he serve God with his mind?
is he a liar if he says he has no sin?
is he tempted by his own wicked desire?
is it any longer him who sins?
is he contrary to his flesh or complicit with it?
has he died to the law?
does he pick up his cross?
come on man. 1st person is not 3rd person. present tense is not past tense. we don't skip chapters.
some people put a price tag on salvation because they are afraid it will all be stolen if they let it be free.
_________________________________________________________
This is no laughing matter.
The fact that you think any of this is amusing speaks volumes.
Salvation in the removal of sins from the person who first believes is free.
Now he must walk worth of the vocation wherewith he was called (Ephesians 4:1).
That is a scriptural fact.
What Law did God gave to Man before Moses? You should at least state that law clearly if you believe there WAS law.