We experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ.

[Peterlag]

Romans 7:

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


My understanding is that we are to reckon our flesh (old man) dead to the sin which dwells in the flesh (Rom 6:11). This is a moment by moment, day by day decision we must make when the lusts of the flesh are stirred up. We are to take everything to the Lord and hand it over to Him. Sometimes we are successful at this and sometimes we are not. When we are not as successful as we'd like, we take that to the Lord and confess our sins and He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

James 1 tells us exactly how we end up being overcome by sin:

James 1:

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


When we look at the Greek words for drawn away and enticed, we see hunting terms:

drawn away = where the metaphor is taken from hunting and fishing: as game is lured from its covert, so man by lust is allured from the safety of self-restraint to sin.

enticed = to bait a hook or set a trap with bait; (figuratively) entice a victim into a moral trap, luring them in through their own selfish impulses.


So, we are encouraged not to take the bait. God tells us we're going to face trials and temptations ... He tells us we can overcome by logically concluding (reckoning) ourselves dead to sin (Rom 6:11) ... remain firmly in the Lord Jesus Christ which is where we are safe from the onslaught of the trials of this life.

We are able to endure the temptation and receive the crown of life!!! what a promise!!!

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

I disagree. It seems to me you would be trying to resurrect your old man with this moment by moment action. I put Christ on once and that was it.

 

[Peterlag]

Because the theology offered you is not the correct understanding. There is no "sin nature" in the Bible. That is a theological construct that Augustine invented. We do sin and sin dwells in us, that is true. Christ cleanses us from sin and asks us to surrender and walk through life with Him learning to make the choices He wants us to make changing us. But there is no sin nature in the Bible as an excuse for our sin. We sin because of the pleasure sin brings.

I can add to that if it would be okay...

Therefore, victory in the Christian life is as simple as renewing our minds to who we are and what we have already received in Christ. It’s not the struggle of two natures inside of us. We will continue to struggle with sin if we see ourselves as old sinners saved by grace. And so it's also true we will manifest the change that took place in our new nature when we understand we are not old sinners saved by grace. Thus, we act like being part of the senses world when we see ourselves as being part of the senses world. We act like being part of the Christian world when we see ourselves as being part of Christ—i.e., in our born-again spirits.

I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. Then where did this idea come from that we are still sinners by nature, and that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual, but still alive to sin whereby we must with much effort, frustration, and failure be in a battle with our sin nature the rest of our lives? Who taught us that it's not the spirit that has become our new nature, but that after we received Christ within, we still have the old sin nature left as we live the rest of our lives trying to restrain it? If the apostle Paul taught that we do experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ, and that it’s dead and gone and therefore we are dead to sin? Then where did this idea come from that we are still alive to sin? Could it have come from these guys...

The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul. Some two hundred years later another church father who went by the name of Augustine, (Bishop of Hippo) whose writings shaped and developed the doctrine of sin as he considered that humanity shared in Adam's sin. Augustine's formulation of the original sin after the year of 412 was popular among protestant reformer's such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated the original sin with a hurtful desire meaning that it persisted even after baptism and therefore completely destroyed the freedom to do good. At first Augustine, said that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin. But after the year of 412 this concept changed to a loss of free will except to sin, and it's this Augustine's concept that influenced the development of the western church and western philosophy and indirectly all of western Christianity.

 

[DorothyMae]

I disagree. It seems to me you would be trying to resurrect your old man with this moment by moment action. I put Christ on once and that was it.

So how is that working out for you? Are you like Christ having put him on once and that was it?

 

[DorothyMae]

I can add to that if it would be okay...

Therefore, victory in the Christian life is as simple as renewing our minds to who we are and what we have already received in Christ. It’s not the struggle of two natures inside of us. We will continue to struggle with sin if we see ourselves as old sinners saved by grace. And so it's also true we will manifest the change that took place in our new nature when we understand we are not old sinners saved by grace. Thus, we act like being part of the senses world when we see ourselves as being part of the senses world. We act like being part of the Christian world when we see ourselves as being part of Christ—i.e., in our born-again spirits.

I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. Then where did this idea come from that we are still sinners by nature, and that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual, but still alive to sin whereby we must with much effort, frustration, and failure be in a battle with our sin nature the rest of our lives? Who taught us that it's not the spirit that has become our new nature, but that after we received Christ within, we still have the old sin nature left as we live the rest of our lives trying to restrain it? If the apostle Paul taught that we do experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ, and that it’s dead and gone and therefore we are dead to sin? Then where did this idea come from that we are still alive to sin? Could it have come from these guys...

The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul. Some two hundred years later another church father who went by the name of Augustine, (Bishop of Hippo) whose writings shaped and developed the doctrine of sin as he considered that humanity shared in Adam's sin. Augustine's formulation of the original sin after the year of 412 was popular among protestant reformer's such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated the original sin with a hurtful desire meaning that it persisted even after baptism and therefore completely destroyed the freedom to do good. At first Augustine, said that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin. But after the year of 412 this concept changed to a loss of free will except to sin, and it's this Augustine's concept that influenced the development of the western church and western philosophy and indirectly all of western Christianity.

Of course you can add to what you wrote. That is quite welcome. I think a great deal about these matters and because I am not from a theology background but instead studied and work in science, I test theories in real life. I take a theory of any kind and test it in how real life works, in this case, how this new life in Christ works.

There is a member who started a thread by asking about a passage as she has seen born again real Christians do a number of wrong sinful things to others. This seemed not to be correct and so she wondered about a passage, that is not important in this discussion. But what is important is that when we look at the church and our own lives especially after a time when the newness has worn off, we see that the sin that we supposedly put off is still there. We see other Christia§ns engaging in sin without seeming to be sad about it. I worked in a Christian organization for 5 years and saw those dedicated christians commit every sin except murder. Not all and not many at all. But adultery? One man fairly openly relatively speaking. Stealing? Very much so so that higher security measures had to be taken to prevent the christians from stealing the money from others. The list goes on. I was not affected by this much except to see that the theology that promises new hearts did not seem to match real life in many.

These did not seem to receive what the theology promised. They understood completely what you say. There was no problem in lack of understanding nor receiving. The problem lay in what James described as they simply desired the pleasure sin offered and could not wait until it was to be enjoyed righteously.

What I think matches real life is that a change has taken place both in the cleansing the heart of sin and the investment of the Holy SPirit within to teach us and convict us of sin. We have not yet received what God has to give until certain points are reached. These are reached by us confessing and repenting of sin, renewing the mind, and drawing near to God asking for help against the temptations of sin among other measures. It is not done for us while we sleep painless to the desires. We are required to struggle against our own desires and obey instead the living God. When we do that, grace is released to overcome sin, bit by bit. All the while being held and helped by Him.

We have an impartation of the Holy Spirit in some measure at the beginning. That is a new ability to obey God if we avail ourselves of that in the heat of the choice. That grows or decreases depending ujpon our choices in matters of obedience and holiness. This is an understanding that matches real life and the scriptures.

Scripture speaks both of having and struggling to have that which is not yet given. IT speaks of us choosing to do good and Him being in us to will and to do right. This tension is there. We work out our own salvation already having been saved. Right now the emphasis is more on the receiving than on doing anything in obedience to God. As a result there is great unholiness in the church as we neglect our part assuming He will do it all for us.

Sorry this is long. I can show you the scriptures for this if you want but it would have made it longer. If you are not interested than I saved us both time.

His blessing on you
Dottie

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The believer that continues in sin has not crucified the flesh with its desires and chooses to serve the flesh instead of Christ.

But the bible says the seed Is Incorruptible and those who have been born again Will seek to purify themselves even as they are pure.Our Spirit was changed but we still are In earth bodies and since GOD changed us at the core we need to

Romans 12:1-2
King James version


1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
+++
1 John 3:
King James Version


2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

 

[DorothyMae]

But the bible says the seed Is Incorruptible and those who have been born again Will seek to purify themselves even as they are pure.Our Spirit was changed but we still are In earth bodies and since GOD changed us at the core we need to

Romans 12:1-2
King James version


1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
+++
1 John 3:
King James Version


2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

The seed is the word of God. Those who received the seed CAN purify themselves with His help but if they refuse, then it will not happen. The word of God purifies for those who DO it, not those who assume it speaks of them. This changes our character and spirit unless we refuse. It is not a foregone conclusion that we are changed and we ought not claim we are changed until it is seen in our obedience to the living God.

 

[Guojing]

What is the difference? It is wrong done most often to another individual. Whether a noun or a verb the wrong has the same weight.

If its wrong done to another individual, its an action, hence a verb.

Noun means state, verb means action.

So for example in Romans 5:12-19, when he said sin entered the world due to Adam's disobedience, it is a noun, or sin nature.

You sin (verb) because you are a sinner (noun), not the opposite.

You are a sinner (noun) because of Adam's sin (verb)

 

[DorothyMae]

If its wrong done to another individual, its an action, hence a verb.

Noun means state, verb means action.

So for example in Romans 5:12-19, when he said sin entered the world due to Adam's disobedience, it is a noun, or sin nature.

You sin (verb) because you are a sinner (noun), not the opposite.

You are a sinner (noun) because of Adam's sin (verb)

For the recepient of the wrong deed (sin, noun) it is as painful or even devastating as the perpetrator sinning against him. Telling the victim is what a verb is not comfort. Now a noun is not a state only. It is also a deed. It is a material thing or an immaterial thing.

Now sin is a noun and a verb in English. Sin entered the world, it is did not enter Adam. The world has no nature. Sin did not enter Adam and so you cannot deduce a sin nature entered him as the scripture explicitely says it entered the world, not that man. The world is outside of Adam.

The Bible actually says you sin because you want and do not have. That is why you sin. IT does not blame a sin nature you cannot help and were born with. No one is asked to ask forgiveness of Adam's sin but Adam. It says, "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. " Does not say we sin because we are a sinner. It says we sin because we desire.

I know the human pride prefers to repent for Adam's sin, a sin the person did not commit. But that is not what the Bible tells us is our problem.

 

[Guojing]

For the recepient of the wrong deed (sin, noun) it is as painful or even devastating as the perpetrator sinning against him. Telling the victim is what a verb is not comfort. Now a noun is not a state only. It is also a deed. It is a material thing or an immaterial thing.

Now sin is a noun and a verb in English. Sin entered the world, it is did not enter Adam. The world has no nature. Sin did not enter Adam and so you cannot deduce a sin nature entered him as the scripture explicitely says it entered the world, not that man. The world is outside of Adam.

The Bible actually says you sin because you want and do not have. That is why you sin. IT does not blame a sin nature you cannot help and were born with. No one is asked to ask forgiveness of Adam's sin but Adam. It says, "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. " Does not say we sin because we are a sinner. It says we sin because we desire.

I know the human pride prefers to repent for Adam's sin, a sin the person did not commit. But that is not what the Bible tells us is our problem.

Romans 5:12 is clear that as by one man sin entered into the world.

Sin there is a noun. Do you agree with that?

 

[stonesoffire]

Flesh:

G4561 (Strong)


σάρξ


sarx


sarx


Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).


Total KJV occurrences: 151


carnal:

G4559 (Strong)


σαρκικός


sarkikos


sar-kee-kos'


From G4561; pertaining to flesh, that is, (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate: - carnal, fleshly.


Total KJV occurrences: 11

The human nature with a bent to sin. Sin nature.

 

[DorothyMae]

Romans 5:12 is clear that as by one man sin entered into the world.

Sin there is a noun. Do you agree with that?

Sin entered the world. Sin did not enter Adam and create a sin nature. What difference does it make? The word "wrong" can be a noun or an adjective. Doesn't mean it has substance because it is a noun. Love is a noun. Courage in a noun. Honor can be a noun or a verb. I don't see what difference it makes. This changes depending upon the language, by the way.

 

[DorothyMae]

Flesh:

G4561 (Strong)


σάρξ


sarx


sarx


Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).


Total KJV occurrences: 151


carnal:

G4559 (Strong)


σαρκικός


sarkikos


sar-kee-kos'


From G4561; pertaining to flesh, that is, (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate: - carnal, fleshly.


Total KJV occurrences: 11

The human nature with a bent to sin. Sin nature.

That's the theology. Not in the Bible as no verse refers to a "sin nature" from cover to cover but that above is the theology made by man.

 

[Guojing]

Sin entered the world. Sin did not enter Adam and create a sin nature. What difference does it make? The word "wrong" can be a noun or an adjective. Doesn't mean it has substance because it is a noun. Love is a noun. Courage in a noun. Honor can be a noun or a verb. I don't see what difference it makes. This changes depending upon the language, by the way.

What vs 12 is trying to teach you was that thru Adam's disobedience, sin (noun) entered the world.

Do you agree with that causality? Adam disobeyed >>> everyone who descended from Adam was born with a sin nature.

 

[DorothyMae]

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So what do you do with those who commit sin? How do you deal with this considering the promises of God and what you see in your life and the lives of others? I am not doubting the Word of God but asking an obvious question.

 

[DorothyMae]

What vs 12 is trying to teach you was that thru Adam's disobedience, sin (noun) entered the world.

Do you agree with that causality? Adam disobeyed >>> everyone who descended from Adam was born with a sin nature.

I did not disagree. SIn (the noun) entered the world, not Adam because Adam sinned, the verb.

There is no Biblical support for everyone descended from Adam to have been born with a sin nature. No one in the whole of the Bible said this. The theology was invented later.

 

[Guojing]

I did not disagree. SIn (the noun) entered the world, not Adam because Adam sinned, the verb.

There is no Biblical support for everyone descended from Adam to have been born with a sin nature. No one in the whole of the Bible said this. The theology was invented later.

vs12-14 said all sinned, even those who live before the Law was given in Exodus.

If sin was not imputed without the Law, the only reason why there is death before Exodus was that Adam's disobedience was imputed to all their account.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

Romans 7 is an amazing reassurance.

Romans 8 is the amazing reassurance.

Romans 7 is place a born again believer has no business being in.

 

[DorothyMae]

vs12-14 said all sinned, even those who live before the Law was given in Exodus.

Correct. The Holy Spirit was still appealing to the conscience.

If sin was not imputed without the Law, the only reason why there is death before Exodus was that Adam's disobedience was imputed to all their account.

No, it says the soul who sins dies. They sinned so they die. The wages of sin is death. Doesn’t say the wages of Adams sin is our death.

Again, I know the pride prefers it’s not our own sin but the Bible says it is.

 

[DorothyMae]

The renewed mind might be putting on the mind of Christ and thereby walking in the spirit.

Is that what you see in church and on this site?

 

[Guojing]

Correct. The Holy Spirit was still appealing to the conscience.
No, it says the soul who sins dies. They sinned so they die. The wages of sin is death. Doesn’t say the wages of Adams sin is our death.

Again, I know the pride prefers it’s not our own sin but the Bible says it is.

Do you know what verses 12-14 are literally saying in the first place?