Goal or Gateway ? Empowering of the Holy Spirit

notuptome · Jun 16, 2020

CS1 said:

There have been some who have tried to take my Thread in a different direction. I have placed those who mock and scoff or ask the same question after it has been answered already.

Signs and wonder trigger faith it is what causes many to come and see Jesus. IF Jesus used them because HE was touched by our pain and suffering surely the Apostles felt the same thing?

If Jesus used signs and wonders and the Apostles did and others we read in the Word of God, why is it not for us also?

Jesus said You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be my witnesses. Are we not to receive power as did the Apostles? and did the house of Cornelius ? as did the disciple's Paul met in Ephesus? There are those who will see and still will not believe Jesus said to shake off the dust and keep going.

Those who want to explain how a sign or wonder happened is mainly to disprove God. Science does not call many sicknesses that are described in the word of God as a devil or demon. Was Jesus wrong when HE called them devils?
Yet Human reasoning and many Christian will have you believe Jesus was wrong because HE did have what we have today to show why mental disorder happens. The same Christian will tell you that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not needed because the Bible was made. Your or mine human intellect does not win people to the Lord. God has chosen to use foolish things in man's opinion to confound the wise human understanding

WE preach a Risen Lord that is a GREAT miracle and Jesus said we are to testify to the death, burial, and resurrection
We serve a Jesus who is alive, not dead. Resurrection power the Holy Spirit still moves on people to Testify that Jesus is still healing, still saving, still delivering. The empowerment of the Holy Spirit is a gateway to witnessing Jesus has risen and is alive. The Holy Spirit makes alive, gives liberty, and leads us and guides us into all truth and speaks of Jesus and confirms the word with Signs & wonders.

That has not changed even with the foolishness on TV, even with those who teach it is not for today. God is still moving. I hear all the time those Pharisees in here say " what is it not on the news prove it " I remind you they said the same things to Jesus and while He was on the Cross too.
Remember Jesus

fed 5000 then they left him
went to a town where HE could no mighty work there because of unbelief Jesus wanted to but could not
the Apostles healed and still went to jail, they performed mighty miracles yet were stoned and beaten
many in church history suffered the same. and did the same too. and continue to do so.

Very lofty sounding error.

God has chosen the foolishness of preaching not signs wonders and miracles to evangelize the lost of this world. 1 Cor 1:18-25

And what of a man who will not be admonished from the word of God? Deny the word of God and expect to be blessed?

What did the apostles say on the road to Emmaus? Did not our hearts burn within us as Jesus spoke to them. Luke 24:32

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Guojing · Jun 16, 2020

I have shown you the pattern for signs and wonders performed during the ot, and linked to what early acts was about.

The 12 were preaching to Israel and signs and wonders were necessary to them because Jews required a sign

Now, are you still preaching to Israel?

Guojing · Jun 16, 2020

Mii said:

This is a bit jumbled...it's a difficult topic, but if any area speaks to you and encourages withholding judgement and not coming against those that have faith in a way that you may need something that they have been blessed to not have need of. Awesome

This is something I wrestle with myself. Keeping a neutral perspective (with openness) is where I sit in regard to the plethora of information on this topic.

Have you not heard many anecdotal stories of such occurring? I've only heard one from someone that I would trust enough for it to give me pause. Almost all of these are done privately...

I won't share his story, but he can if he cares to someday and maybe I will direct him to this site. I've heard plenty that feel like truth to me, and plenty that I am quite suspicious of.

For myself personally, it's kind of like a barometer. Is this preacher legit? Is this testimony legit? Did that really happen?

Many times it fits into two categories in my own heart.

I don't bring up false signs and wonders as evidence against the Lord moving this way. The enemy is not idle and neither is the Lord.

Another factor is of course cameras, and people "wanting" to "prove" God/miracles. My experience has been, when people start recording, things turn down. It's almost a symptom of unbelief. Analyze that a bit if you would. How would a camera change things? Not just for you, but try to anticipate others motivations.

Note Jesus' experience in Nazareth during his ministry.

There is obviously a lot more technology that delves into the esoteric, which is probably calculated from forces of darkness with a blip here and a blip there. I don't chase stuff like that.

let's say I witness a miraculous healing and even if I am convinced to the bottom of my heart...still. Trust and faith go hand in hand. Am I going to bring a camera crew in (like when the record people in tears praising the Lord) and make certain to document as fully as possible and have a doctor say it doesn't make any sense but that yes something occurred...Ah, but then we cannot prove how it occurred and the response to a lot of these healings in the medical field is..."There's still a lot we don't know about the body, diseases, etc. etc."

Look at a good few miracles in scripture. A fair number of them were actually "eyes only". Very rarely were they done in front of a large group of people. The feeding of the 5,000 was a bit different because it may have been easily missed by many what actually occurred.

Even the healing of the man in John 9:1-3...they had to bring it to a committee to even confirm that it even happened and they still didn't believe. The disciples, the man himself and the parents knew for certain and that may have been all.

Notice the water into wine and "how" it occurred?

Contrast that with the temptation of turning stones to bread.

You could have the signs and miracles that followed the apostles and you would still have to have faith...it is NOT sight. You still have to have faith that he is who he says he is. You still have to have faith in his promises. You still have to have faith that all this agony is for a reason. That reason is Jesus, but what that means each person has to figure out for themselves.

I'm not sure what you believe but start in Revelation 10 and keep reading for a chapter or so. See how that purpose appears to be different from our witness?

There is a lot to discuss regarding this, but I have no doubt that God can choose super private moments that still leave room for doubts because...without faith it is impossible to please him.

In the ot, Signs and wonders are for jews to see and believe.

Do you believe that Jews required a sign? It was stated explicitly by Paul.

For us now in the body of Christ, we are not to seek signs. We walk by faith instead of sight, again stated explicitly and clearly by Paul

Guojing · Jun 16, 2020

CS1 said:

There have been some who have tried to take my Thread in a different direction. I have placed those who mock and scoff or ask the same question after it has been answered already.

Signs and wonder trigger faith it is what causes many to come and see Jesus. IF Jesus used them because HE was touched by our pain and suffering surely the Apostles felt the same thing?

If Jesus used signs and wonders and the Apostles did and others we read in the Word of God, why is it not for us also?

Jesus said You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be my witnesses. Are we not to receive power as did the Apostles? and did the house of Cornelius ? as did the disciple's Paul met in Ephesus? There are those who will see and still will not believe Jesus said to shake off the dust and keep going.

Those who want to explain how a sign or wonder happened is mainly to disprove God. Science does not call many sicknesses that are described in the word of God as a devil or demon. Was Jesus wrong when HE called them devils?
Yet Human reasoning and many Christian will have you believe Jesus was wrong because HE did have what we have today to show why mental disorder happens. The same Christian will tell you that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not needed because the Bible was made. Your or mine human intellect does not win people to the Lord. God has chosen to use foolish things in man's opinion to confound the wise human understanding

WE preach a Risen Lord that is a GREAT miracle and Jesus said we are to testify to the death, burial, and resurrection
We serve a Jesus who is alive, not dead. Resurrection power the Holy Spirit still moves on people to Testify that Jesus is still healing, still saving, still delivering. The empowerment of the Holy Spirit is a gateway to witnessing Jesus has risen and is alive. The Holy Spirit makes alive, gives liberty, and leads us and guides us into all truth and speaks of Jesus and confirms the word with Signs & wonders.

That has not changed even with the foolishness on TV, even with those who teach it is not for today. God is still moving. I hear all the time those Pharisees in here say " what is it not on the news prove it " I remind you they said the same things to Jesus and while He was on the Cross too.
Remember Jesus

fed 5000 then they left him
went to a town where HE could no mighty work there because of unbelief Jesus wanted to but could not
the Apostles healed and still went to jail, they performed mighty miracles yet were stoned and beaten
many in church history suffered the same. and did the same too. and continue to do so.

God is no longer moving among Israel as Romans 11 stated. He has became enemy with the nation.

Due to That enmity between them, we gentiles are now included in the salvation plan (romans 11:28)

So if signs and wonders are for Israel, and never for us Gentiles, why do people still insist they are still for Us today?

We have a far better gospel, one that gives us salvation right now (1 cor 15:1-4)

CS1 · Jun 16, 2020

notuptome said:

This is why I placed you on Ignore because you are very foolish. You think you can control God through HIS words in the Bible while not looking at all that Jesus did that was good including healing. Did everyones heart burn when Jesus spoke to them? Did the pharisees ? did the 5000 fed by Jesus stay to hear the burning message and receive or did they leave? God still confirmed His word with signs & wonders. You are not one to admonished anyone you are prideful man. You deny the word of God and expect to be blessed. You speak the truth but it about your own self. Try practicing what you tell others to do.

Mii · Jun 17, 2020

Guojing said:

References please...It seems you entirely missed what I said. Is English your native tongue? Not trying to be offensive by the way, just wondering based of your username.

Consider what the verse about a vile and wicked generation means. The sign of Jonah was given. What do you think that was?

Mii · Jun 17, 2020

Blain said:

Yes to this last part exactly. If any movement on our end without him moving within us, it will come to naught. I'm learning to just wait and be patient and be ready to act/pray etc.

I've also had similar experiences to what you described further up, but just different. Very unique.

Thanks for sharing

Guojing · Jun 17, 2020

Mii said:

The first post you quoted from me had all the scripture references. Exodus 4, 1 Kings, John etc.

Your post addressed none of those scripture.

The sign of Jonah was the resurrection of Christ, if that is what you were asking.

Mii · Jun 17, 2020

Guojing said:

It was mostly your statement at the very end and what you were drawing together. I presume that makes sense?

So if the sign of Jonah was the resurrection of Christ what were the other things before that? All the miracles, etc.

Mii · Jun 17, 2020

Your closing statement in the post I quoted was open ended. I read into that "you do not see it happening or anyone with authority from God to prove themselves as such via this manifestation, therefore it does not occur/will not occur" That was what my reply was based upon.

I am familiar with what you posted.

If it is otherwise, care to say so? @Guojing

Guojing · Jun 17, 2020

Mii said:

Why Jesus did the signs in the gospels? John stated it clearly in John 20

30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe[a] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Jesus came to Israel and proclaim he is their Messiah promised to them by the OT prophets.

To Jews, they need to see signs from him, he showed them 8 signs recorded by John. And he told them this very clear statement in John 10

Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

Jesus used signs and wonders to tell Israel about the gospel of the kingdom, their promised King is here to usher them into the kingdom.

Guojing · Jun 17, 2020

Mii said:

Signs and wonders are not random acts of miracles. They are performed for a very specific purpose, to testify that the one performing them is sent by God, and its only meant for Israel.

The Jews require a sign, but we don't. We walk by faith and not by sight (2 Cor 5:7)

Scribe · Jun 17, 2020

Guojing said:

12Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Cor 12)

The Corinthians weren't Israel or even Jewish.

Mii · Jun 17, 2020

Guojing said:

Ok, so clarify for me then. You do NOT believe that miracles occur today? Such as healing, deliverance, providential miracles, etc.

Again, read revelation 10 and note the subject matter following. Do you have anything to say about what their witness is for? Chapters 10-11...I suppose I was too vague alas.

Guojing · Jun 17, 2020

Scribe said:

The reason Paul was given signs, was to authenticate to the other Jews that his gospel that he was preaching to the gentiles was also valid (acts 15:12), that he is as legitimate as an apostle as the other 12

Guojing · Jun 17, 2020

Mii said:

God can still heal today, but these healings are not signs.

The gospel of the kingdom will be preached to Israel once again during the tribulation.

So yes, signs and wonders will also be making a comeback then, as Jesus himself also stated in Matthew 24:24

Mii · Jun 17, 2020

Guojing said:

Well cool, I had not ever thought of it that way. That actually fills in a tiny missing piece.

but recall that the effect Jesus had extended outside jews with at least the centurion and the samaritan woman, so that factors in for me that it may not be to them "only" but potentially like sojourners and proselytes during that time period.

I expected the effect to be very small (not in scope perhaps) but practical difference. Not the right thread, but what I am saying (and I think others are) revelation 10-11 is a different time period/purpose regarding their ministry and the mystery being finished.

but still, that doesn't mean that we are not empowered to do great works for the Lord...although again, works that leave room for doubt still, like what I mentioned about healings.

Nehemiah6 · Jun 17, 2020

Scribe said:

The church at Corinth had both Jews and Gentiles. Paul always went first to the synagogues: And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. (Acts 18:4). When opposed in the synagogue, he went next door, and even the ruler of the synagogue was saved: And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus [a Jew], one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue. And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue [a Jew], believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized. (Acts 18:7,8)

As you will note further down there were many Jews in Corinth. And tongues were indeed a sign to unbelieving Jews. That was their primary purpose.

Guojing · Jun 17, 2020

Mii said:

Well cool, I had not ever thought of it that way. That actually fills in a tiny missing piece.

but recall that the effect Jesus had extended outside jews with at least the centurion and the samaritan woman, so that factors in for me that it may not be to them "only" but potentially like sojourners and proselytes during that time period.

I expected the effect to be very small (not in scope perhaps) but practical difference. Not the right thread, but what I am saying (and I think others are) revelation 10-11 is a different time period/purpose regarding their ministry and the mystery being finished.

but still, that doesn't mean that we are not empowered to do great works for the Lord...although again, works that leave room for doubt still, like what I mentioned about healings.

You don't think revelation 10, and esp rev 11, is referring to the Great Tribulation time period?

Scribe · Jun 17, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

Excellent addition but wrong conclusion. The message DESIRE spiritual gifts was to all of them. I would that you ALL spoke in tongues was to ALL of them. Rather that you would prophesy was to all of them.

Goal or Gateway ? Empowering of the Holy Spirit

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