( whoso readeth, let him understand: )

[Nehemiah6]

Reverse the numbers via the way men think and it will all fall into place.

I don't believe we are expected to reverse the numbers. We must take them as they are and discern their meaning.

 

[Rondonmon]

I don't believe we are expected to reverse the numbers. We must take them as they are and discern their meaning.

Well, that's in the human mind. God never had them reversed anyway. He told us about THREE DATES and the number of days until THESE WONDERS END {Second Coming}. It was mankind who couldn't figure it out and thus started wrongly placing the 1290 and 1335 into the 1000 year reign, which it could never be.

As I explained it takes care of every issue. Men's Traditions of old do not excite me, I only care about the facts.

 

[Nehemiah6]

As I explained it takes care of every issue. Men's Traditions of old do not excite me, I only care about the facts.

In that case you should have no problem in seeing that 1260, 1290, and 1335 days all relate to the first half of Daniel's 70th week, which corresponds to the reign of the Antichrist.

They have nothing to do with the Millennium, and they certainly cannot (and should not) be interpreted as "years". This is what Christ meant by "let the reader understand".

 

[GaryA]

This is what Christ meant by "let the reader understand".

Why would you believe that this is directly associated with anything other than that which is in the verse where it is found?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Why would you believe that this is directly associated with anything other than that which is in the verse where it is found?

What I have pointed out is that "let the reader understand" is directly related to all the prophecies in Daniel regarding the Antichrist and the Abomination of Desolation. The Lord wanted Christians to go back and carefully study the entire book of Daniel, since it deals primarily with the coming of the Antichrist and his destruction by Christ. Even the dreams of Nebuchadnezzar tie into this theme.

Daniel gives us an overview of events from the establishment of the Babylonian Empire to the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth (as well as the establishment of everlasting righteousness in Israel and on earth) after the Second Coming of Christ.

And the Antichrist and his Abomination of Desolation precede the Second Coming in the first half of Daniel's 70th week.

 

[Moses_Young]

No...........Daniel was speaking about a FUTURE EVENT in Daniel 12:11, we know that because of the very first two verses in Dan. 12.

Dan. 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 27:50 - 54
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice {Jesus is our DAILY SACRIFICE} shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Hebrews 9:24-28
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I personally don't get why people even try to argue this point, the verses above tell you its wrong. Then we see Micheal standing up in Rev. 12 casting Satan out of Heaven and delivering the Fleeing Jews to Petra where they are protected for 1260 days until the Second Coming,

So are you saying you believe the Second Coming has happened already?

 

[GaryA]

Do you believe all of Daniel's prophecy is fulfilled?

If you mean all prophecy in the book of Daniel, then - no. I believe there are some verses that reference things still future.

 

[garee]

What I have pointed out is that "let the reader understand" is directly related to all the prophecies in Daniel regarding the Antichrist and the Abomination of Desolation. The Lord wanted Christians to go back and carefully study the entire book of Daniel, since it deals primarily with the coming of the Antichrist and his destruction by Christ. Even the dreams of Nebuchadnezzar tie into this theme.

Daniel gives us an overview of events from the establishment of the Babylonian Empire to the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth (as well as the establishment of everlasting righteousness in Israel and on earth) after the Second Coming of Christ.

And the Antichrist and his Abomination of Desolation precede the Second Coming in the first half of Daniel's 70th week.

Everlasting righteousness in Christians and on earth think it would be in respect to the new name He named his bride to represent all the nations. Previously called her Israel.

They are the temple not built with human hands .

 

[GaryA]

What I have pointed out is that "let the reader understand" is directly related to all the prophecies in Daniel regarding the Antichrist and the Abomination of Desolation.

The only thing the parenthetical phrases in Matthew and Mark directly have to do with is what is being said in the verses where they are found.

It should be obvious that the authors deemed it necessary to include it to prevent the confusion that would have resulted if it had not been included.

It should be obvious that the way it was stated indicates there was a "special meaning" somehow associated with it that needed to be properly understood by anyone who read it so that they would be able to know the true intended message.

The phrase would not be needed if there were no "special case" for understanding it.

So - no - sorry - the phrase is not there to explain the prophecy of the book of Daniel to the reader. It is there to indicate that something needed to properly understand it is puposely being left out (or, not being said) - and, the reader will have to "make the connection" to [properly] obtain the true meaning.

 

[Nehemiah6]

It is there to indicate that something needed to properly understand it is purposely being left out

How would anyone understand Matthew 24:15 without carefully studying the book of Daniel? So your objection has no validity, and I already showed that in my first response. No one would have a clue about the meaning of "the Abomination of Desolation" without the book of Daniel.

 

[JaumeJ]

It is not rocket science. Just about all who believe, without having read the Word entirely, know by the Holy Spirit who the Abomination that makes desolate is...……….Of course they would have to have heard the Word from preachers in their fellowship.

Generally I find it always good to read Daniel if I am going to read Revelation and vice versa.

 

[garee]

How would anyone understand Matthew 24:15 without carefully studying the book of Daniel? So your objection has no validity, and I already showed that in my first response. No one would have a clue about the meaning of "the Abomination of Desolation" without the book of Daniel.

The book of Daniel is one of the many that teach us God does not live in temples made with human hands. It is the abomination of desolation. Temporal things seen in the eternal place of God not seen. ( the place of faith) Something happened at the reformation .The veil was rent. There was no fleshly Jewish God siting on a throne.

Believer have always been the temple that houses our unseen Spirit of God. Building ten will not change the law.

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;Acts17:24-25

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[Nehemiah6]

There was no fleshly Jewish God siting on a throne.

You have entirely missed the point.

 

[GaryA]

How would anyone understand Matthew 24:15 without carefully studying the book of Daniel? So your objection has no validity, and I already showed that in my first response. No one would have a clue about the meaning of "the Abomination of Desolation" without the book of Daniel.

I am referring to something "beyond" the painfully-obvious that the Jews understood (i.e., that prophecy of Daniel was involved - it is stated plainly in the verse).

I did not mean that they should fully understand it without any knowledge of Daniel.

Daniel is the basis of their understanding, applied against knowledge of history.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

It depends. the majority of the gospels correspond with each other but they give newer insights into the message of Jesus and what he did from the others. I would not say they all give the exact accounts on Jesus ministry. I like reading Matthew and i watch John and Luke on DVD. Matthew is about spiritual journey and have happens to people that follow Jesus. Mark is oldest gospel and the shortest, it talks about specifically what the blasphemy of the spirit is, the other gospels do not. That is just one example.

 

[Batyah]

I believe:

~ The "great tribulation" as spoken of in Matthew 24:21 started ~70 A.D.
~ We are currently in it.
~ It will end at some point in time in the future.
~ The worst is yet to come.

~ There will not be another brick-and-mortar temple. (At least, not that God will recognize - and, that would be valid for the Bible to call "temple of God"...)

I will have to address the other thing later.

Olivet Discourse prophecy is past, present, and future.

Revelation prophecy is past, present, and future.

Not all past. Not all future.

Both have been "unfolding" over the past ~2000 years.

I agree with you on most points. Especially that there will not be another physical temple. There shouldn't be. It is quite possible that the tribulation period has indeed commenced. It is also possible (as I pondered last night in meditation) that we have already witnessed the great falling away. The image I HAD in my head of some future event where everybody quit going to church was formed while under the influence of the false prophets and the false doctrines of the churches I was raised in. Fairy tales taught from the pulpit.
The Word says the 'whole world is deceived.'
Surely He couldn't have meant everyone but the 22 million Christians on the planet.
Just sayin.

 

[GaryA]

Scripture tells us what is aligned with the start of the G.T. and what is aligned with the end of the G.T.

The G.T. has already started.

The G.T. has not yet ended.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The intent of this thread is to help Christians better understand a very commonly overlooked and ignored part of Olivet Discourse prophecy.

The parenthetical phrase in the title (found in Matthew 24:15), along with the Mark 13:14 counterpart, are 'key' to understanding the prophecy.

Before we get to what it means (that the Jews understood very well), I want to remind you of something concerning the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew, Mark, Luke).

The three [separate] accounts of the Olivet Discourse are just exactly that - three accounts of the same event by three different writers.

While it is true that some of the details of the Olivet Discourse event are not recorded exactly the same way or in the exact same words in all three accounts (or, even, recorded in all three accounts - being left out of one or both of the other accounts), it is still [also] true - and does not change - that it is simply-and-only the same one event being recorded by three different writers.

The 'witness' of the event is the same for all three writers:

~ Matthew did not witness anything different than Mark or Luke.

~ Mark did not witness anything different than Matthew or Luke.

~ Luke did not witness anything different than Matthew or Mark.

You may find the following chart containing a table of coordinated verses of scripture to be useful in "visualizing" the continued discussion:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

If you will note on the chart that each row of the table aligns verses from the three accounts that "go together" in the overall "picture" of the Olivet Discourse.

Examine row 15 very carefully.

Now I will explain the meaning of the parenthetical statements "in reverse" . . . (I think it may make more sense to you this way.)

What Matthew and Mark "encrypted" - along with the 'decryption key' (the parenthetical statement) - Luke "just came out and said it" (simple, straight, and point-blank).

All three writers are saying the exact same thing.

The thing that the Jews understood that [most] modern Bible students do not - is that Matthew and Mark were making an indirect reference to the Abomination of Desolation and not a literal direct one.

They made reference to what Daniel was referring to and not the event Daniel was referring to.

The event Daniel was referring to occurred in 167 B.C.

The Jews understood them to be saying, in effect, that "when you see [what happened at the time of the AoD] begin/start to happen again" . . .

What happened at the time of the AoD that they understood?

Luke wrote it very simply and directly.

If you study the history, you will find that the description that Luke wrote is exactly what happened at the time of the AoD. (the surrounding of Jerusalem by/with armies and the desolation of Jerusalem)

The Matthew and Mark verses in row 15 are NOT actually saying "when you see the event occur (that Daniel is referring to)"; rather, they are saying "when you see [what happened at the time of the event (that Daniel is referring to)] occur" . . .

The actual event time for what Luke wrote is/was ~70 A.D.

What Matthew and Mark wrote is simply a different way of saying the same exact thing Luke said.

All three accounts are saying the exact same thing.

This is what you need to remember.

The explanation is for the purpose of helping you understand why and how it is that all three accounts are actually saying the same thing.

indeed many get hung up on “
Kingdom of heaven in Matthews gospel and think it’s different from kingdom of God I liked your conclusion thank you

 

[Truth7t7]

Scripture tells us what is aligned with the start of the G.T. and what is aligned with the end of the G.T.

The G.T. has already started.

The G.T. has not yet ended.

When did the GT start?

When will the GT end?

 

[Truth7t7]

The intent of this thread is to help Christians better understand a very commonly overlooked and ignored part of Olivet Discourse prophecy.

The parenthetical phrase in the title (found in Matthew 24:15), along with the Mark 13:14 counterpart, are 'key' to understanding the prophecy.

Before we get to what it means (that the Jews understood very well), I want to remind you of something concerning the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew, Mark, Luke).

The three [separate] accounts of the Olivet Discourse are just exactly that - three accounts of the same event by three different writers.

While it is true that some of the details of the Olivet Discourse event are not recorded exactly the same way or in the exact same words in all three accounts (or, even, recorded in all three accounts - being left out of one or both of the other accounts), it is still [also] true - and does not change - that it is simply-and-only the same one event being recorded by three different writers.

The 'witness' of the event is the same for all three writers:

~ Matthew did not witness anything different than Mark or Luke.

~ Mark did not witness anything different than Matthew or Luke.

~ Luke did not witness anything different than Matthew or Mark.

You may find the following chart containing a table of coordinated verses of scripture to be useful in "visualizing" the continued discussion:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

If you will note on the chart that each row of the table aligns verses from the three accounts that "go together" in the overall "picture" of the Olivet Discourse.

Examine row 15 very carefully.

Now I will explain the meaning of the parenthetical statements "in reverse" . . . (I think it may make more sense to you this way.)

What Matthew and Mark "encrypted" - along with the 'decryption key' (the parenthetical statement) - Luke "just came out and said it" (simple, straight, and point-blank).

All three writers are saying the exact same thing.

The thing that the Jews understood that [most] modern Bible students do not - is that Matthew and Mark were making an indirect reference to the Abomination of Desolation and not a literal direct one.

They made reference to what Daniel was referring to and not the event Daniel was referring to.

The event Daniel was referring to occurred in 167 B.C.

The Jews understood them to be saying, in effect, that "when you see [what happened at the time of the AoD] begin/start to happen again" . . .

What happened at the time of the AoD that they understood?

Luke wrote it very simply and directly.

If you study the history, you will find that the description that Luke wrote is exactly what happened at the time of the AoD. (the surrounding of Jerusalem by/with armies and the desolation of Jerusalem)

The Matthew and Mark verses in row 15 are NOT actually saying "when you see the event occur (that Daniel is referring to)"; rather, they are saying "when you see [what happened at the time of the event (that Daniel is referring to)] occur" . . .

The actual event time for what Luke wrote is/was ~70 A.D.

What Matthew and Mark wrote is simply a different way of saying the same exact thing Luke said.

All three accounts are saying the exact same thing.

This is what you need to remember.

The explanation is for the purpose of helping you understand why and how it is that all three accounts are actually saying the same thing.

(Preterism Is A False Teaching)

Your claim the events in the Olivet Discourse below were fulfilled in 167BC & 70AD is (False)

The Abomination of Desolation seen in Matthew 24:15 below (Causes) the Great Tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21, Jesus Christ Returns In The Heavens in Matthew 24:29-31 (Immediately After The Tribulation Of Those Days) (They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming)

The Abominations Of Desolation, The Great Tribulation, And The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ Are (Future Events) Unfulfilled.

No The Great Tribulation Didn't Take Place In The 70AD Destruction Of Jerusalem, While The Church Has Been Waiting 2,000 Years To Fulfill The Words (Immediately After The Tribulation Of Those Days) In The Second Coming Seen Of Jesus Christ.

(Preterism Is A False Teaching)

Matthew 24:15-21KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.