"Not by works" - false!

[Judges1318]

Anyways, I was hoping for scripture to show those that have not heard the gospel are saved?

It was right there in the Romans 2 passage.
They show whether or not the law of conscience and nature is written on their hearts or not, just as we show that the law that we have and know is written on our hearts in this New Covenant.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

They show whether or not the law of conscience and nature is written on their hearts or not, just as we show that the law that we have and know is written on our hearts in this New Covenant

These passages have always been intriguing to me. However, do you suppose that these who for whatever reason did not know the law in their lifetime would have had the gospel preached to them when they die?

Like when Christ preached to the dead (1 Peter 4:6)?

 

[Judges1318]

Is a higher percentage of people saved that have not heard the gospel?

That's a tough question.

In God's foreknowledge he knows who has 'soil' that will respond to the things of God, and he knows who won't respond to the things of God. And he purposely positions people in history to realize any potential for response they may have. So I would think he would place more people who he knows have the potential for accepting the things of God in the time of the gospel rather than in the time before the gospel. So that would mean a higher percentage of people are saved during the time of the law and the gospel than before. But this is getting into belly button territory, if you know what I mean.

 

[dcontroversal]

Have you read the Old Testament???

God preferred Israel over Egypt. God preferred Israel over Canaan.

Is this morally ambiguous? No, of course not. Even ignoring the FACT that it is God who defines what is moral and what is not. There is a reason why God prefers some groups of people over others. There is a reason why God divides some people from others. It is for His Glory and to His Glory.

Its facts. Not wishes. Not hopes. All we have left is to be grateful. And the hardened side just has their animosity and hate.


How is God loving those who He saves and not loving those who He does not save any different than separating Israel from Egypt in the OT?

Yeah....I don't know if I can go as far as you have with this line of thought.......

a. God was honoring his pledge and covenant made with Abraham

b. Both your cited examples were full of idolatry and maybe their cup was full and they needed to be judged in a similar sense of how the Amorites were mentioned. -->In the fourth generation your descendants will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

The very essence of God IS love, light and spirit.....The plan of redemption was set in motion before God even laid the foundation of the earth...God would HAVE ALL MEN to be saved and come to the KNOWLEDGE of the truth....we must NOT fit God into our box and or view him through OUR LIMITED understanding.....HIS WAYS are NOT OUR WAYS and HIS THOUGHTS are not OUR THOUGHTS....

God being eternal and outside the constrainta of time has the UNIQUE ability to see the past, present and future without any and all hinderances....he moves, wills and judges accordingly.....THE ONLY PREDISTINED action directed toward men is....ALL WHO COME TO THE HEAVENLY FATHER shall be received as full grown sons and daughters.....Having said that....He is under NO OBLIGATION to call one whom he knows will reject, yet...in some cases he does and if anything, increases accountability.

MANY are called, few CHOSEN.

Many is not all and few is even less than the many....now the kicker.....

GOD IS SO RIGHTEOUS IN THE ETERNAL ASPECT OF SALVATION that EVEN HIS CALL TO THE ABOVE MANY IS IRREVOCABLE.

The GIFTS and CALLING OF GOD are IRREVOCABLE!

 

[Judges1318]

These passages have always been intriguing to me. However, do you suppose that these who for whatever reason did not know the law in their lifetime would have had the gospel preached to them when they die?

Like when Christ preached to the dead (1 Peter 4:6)?

Well, I suppose so, but it does force us to ask why these people did not have the conviction of conscience in this life that would make that visitation in the afterlife unnecessary.
I'll have to digest that one a little bit.
Good question.

 

[EleventhHour]

Yeah....I don't know if I can go as far as you have with this line of thought.......

a. God was honoring his pledge and covenant made with Abraham

b. Both your cited examples were full of idolatry and maybe their cup was full and they needed to be judged in a similar sense of how the Amorites were mentioned. -->In the fourth generation your descendants will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

The very essence of God IS love, light and spirit.....The plan of redemption was set in motion before God even laid the foundation of the earth...God would HAVE ALL MEN to be saved and come to the KNOWLEDGE of the truth....we must NOT fit God into our box and or view him through OUR LIMITED understanding.....HIS WAYS are NOT OUR WAYS and HIS THOUGHTS are not OUR THOUGHTS....

God being eternal and outside the constrainta of time has the UNIQUE ability to see the past, present and future without any and all hinderances....he moves, wills and judges accordingly.....THE ONLY PREDISTINED action directed toward men is....ALL WHO COME TO THE HEAVENLY FATHER shall be received as full grown sons and daughters.....Having said that....He is under NO OBLIGATION to call one whom he knows will reject, yet...in some cases he does and if anything, increases accountability.

MANY are called, few CHOSEN.

Many is not all and few is even less than the many....now the kicker.....

GOD IS SO RIGHTEOUS IN THE ETERNAL ASPECT OF SALVATION that EVEN HIS CALL TO THE ABOVE MANY IS IRREVOCABLE.

The GIFTS and CALLING OF GOD are IRREVOCABLE!

Thank you.... so much to think about here!!

I like the way you cut through the entire argument.

we must NOT fit God into our box and or view him through OUR LIMITED understanding

So true!!

Amen

 

[jaybird88]

Your discussion with a fellow brother is obviously degenerating. Thats a shame. You sound defensive and frustrated. If Jesus’s sacrifice wasn’t enough for our salvation, then no amount of work could possibly be enough. Can a man accept the free offer of Christ’s perfect sacrifice , do nothing righteous afterward, and still be saved? Yes, absolutely ! (The crucified sinner next to Jesus did nothing but hang around for a while, then die.)
Grace + (any thing) is a (well meaning ?) mistake.

sometimes it takes a little hard truth fore some to wake up, but then again, some are so blinded by their doctrines they will never see.

if the death of Jesus was all its about, then why did He waste so much time with all the teachings.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then I misunderstood. I apologize. Possibly my fault, possibly your communication skills. Let's say it was me.

So I ask for clarification .... I will keep the questions simple to limit misinterpretation. I will understand if you don't want to answer.
Can people who have not heard the gospel cannot be saved? If YES, how is this done (please use scriptures)

are OT people who never heard the gospel in hell?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Man's Ability to Choose God via "free will" is 'non-moral' and 'irrational'

Libertarian Free Will is the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. For the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias.

On the surface this is very appealing. There are no elements of coercion, either internal or external, to be found in it. Below the surface, however, lurk two serious problems; one moral and the other rational. On the one hand, if we make our choices strictly from a neutral posture, with no prior inclination, then we make choices for no reason. If we have no reason for our choices, if our choices are utterly spontaneous, then our choices have no moral significance. If a choice just happens,--it just pops out, with no rhyme or reason for it—then it cannot be judged good or bad. When God evaluates our choices, he is concerned about our motives. (consider Genesis 50:20)

The second problem this popular view faces is not so much moral as it is rational. If there is no prior inclination, desire, or bent, no prior motivation or reason for a choice, how can a choice even be made? If the will is totally neutral, why would it choose the right or the left? If is something like the problem encountered by Alice in Wonderland when she came to a fork in the road. She did not know which way to turn. She saw the grinning Cheshire cat in the tree. She asked the cat, “Which way should I turn?” The cat replied, “Where are you going?” Alice , “I don’t know.”. “Then,” replied the Cheshire cat, “it doesn’t matter.”

Consider Alice’s dilemma. Actually she had four options from which to choose. She could have taken the left fork or the right fork. She also could have chosen to return the way she had come. Or she could have stood fixed at the spot of indecision until she died there. For he to take a step in any direction, she would need some motivation or inclination to do so. Without any motivation, any prior inclination, her only real option would be to stand there and perish.

Therefore, one must reject the neutral-will (free) theory because it is irrational.

Therefore, man's will must be changed by an external force. Man's will is not free. It is in a depraved state (NO ONE SEEKS GOD). ALL of Mankind's desire is only against God. To be saved God must change a person's motivation. God chooses whom he will save. It is not the irrational 'free will' of man.

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].
Philippians 1:29 For you have been granted [the privilege] for Christ’s sake, not only to believe and confidently trust in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
John 6:29 Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”

Then God is not a God of love and he does not wish to have a relationship. People are mere robots. To do his will.

 

[Guojing]

sometimes it takes a little hard truth fore some to wake up, but then again, some are so blinded by their doctrines they will never see.

if the death of Jesus was all its about, then why did He waste so much time with all the teachings.

Because Israel was offered the kingdom, and they could have chosen to accept their King.

If they did, then the teachings regarding keeping the Law would have continued for all of them.

As Hebrews 8:10 indicated, the new covenant he would have cut with them would allow them to keep the Law with no issues.

 

[EleventhHour]

Your discussion with a fellow brother is obviously degenerating. Thats a shame. You sound defensive and frustrated. If Jesus’s sacrifice wasn’t enough for our salvation, then no amount of work could possibly be enough. Can a man accept the free offer of Christ’s perfect sacrifice , do nothing righteous afterward, and still be saved? Yes, absolutely ! (The crucified sinner next to Jesus did nothing but hang around for a while, then die.)
Grace + (any thing) is a (well meaning ?) mistake.

Amen!

 

[jaybird88]

Because Israel was offered the kingdom, and they could have chosen to accept their King.

If they did, then the teachings regarding keeping the Law would have continued for all of them.

As Hebrews 8:10 indicated, the new covenant he would have cut with them would allow them to keep the Law with no issues.

King Herod and The temple leadership rejected Jesus. The 12, John Baptist, Paul, and the crowds (majority) all followed Jesus.
Why do you guys think "Israel" is Herod and the priest leaders? The people didn't even want them in power they were given these positions by Rome against the will of the people.
This is another modern idea that makes no sense to me.

 

[Pulie]

How can God wished ALL should be saved
... if faith cometh by hearing the gospel
.... and we know ALL do not hear the gospel ????



Please provide scripture to verify your claim that "God can and does talk to people" about salvation as salvation is the context of my question. I assume God's talk to those that have not heard the gosple is about salvation? Can you tell us of people who have not heard the gospel that "God talks to" and about that conversion? Did God tell them about Christ?

Agreed ... NO ONE SEEKS GOD. The will of all those whom God did not select is not changed and they go to hell as a result.


Agreed. The word is never received unless the Spirit first regenerates the person thus changing their will. Since God has chosen to save people by the hearing of the gospel, none that have not heard the gospel are regenerated. All remain spiritually dead.[/QUOTE]

Some Jewish people had a Devine encounter with Yeshua. The spreading of the gospel is not restricted to human vessels.

So what happens to those who have not heard the word?they go to hell? Or are judged by their conscience?

 

[Guojing]

King Herod and The temple leadership rejected Jesus. The 12, John Baptist, Paul, and the crowds (majority) all followed Jesus.
Why do you guys think "Israel" is Herod and the priest leaders? The people didn't even want them in power they were given these positions by Rome against the will of the people.
This is another modern idea that makes no sense to me.

Yes, as Paul explained in Acts 9-11, God has preserved himself a remnant of Jews who believe in Jesus.

But the covenant that God made the nation of Israel is that, as their leaders go, so does the nation. As Paul explained in Romans 11:28, God has became an enemy with Israel, the nation, not individual Jews, who can still be saved by the same gospel of grace that saves us

 

[Fastfredy0]

They show whether or not the law of conscience and nature is written on their hearts or not, just as we show that the law that we have and know is written on our hearts in this New Covenant.

Agreed. Everyone without exception is without excuse as you state in the scripture above. But these are not verses showing how one that has not heard the gospel is saved. That's what I want you to show: verses explaining how those who have not heard the gospel are saved.

 

[Grandpa]

Yeah....I don't know if I can go as far as you have with this line of thought.......

a. God was honoring his pledge and covenant made with Abraham

b. Both your cited examples were full of idolatry and maybe their cup was full and they needed to be judged in a similar sense of how the Amorites were mentioned. -->In the fourth generation your descendants will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

The very essence of God IS love, light and spirit.....The plan of redemption was set in motion before God even laid the foundation of the earth...God would HAVE ALL MEN to be saved and come to the KNOWLEDGE of the truth....we must NOT fit God into our box and or view him through OUR LIMITED understanding.....HIS WAYS are NOT OUR WAYS and HIS THOUGHTS are not OUR THOUGHTS....

God being eternal and outside the constrainta of time has the UNIQUE ability to see the past, present and future without any and all hinderances....he moves, wills and judges accordingly.....THE ONLY PREDISTINED action directed toward men is....ALL WHO COME TO THE HEAVENLY FATHER shall be received as full grown sons and daughters.....Having said that....He is under NO OBLIGATION to call one whom he knows will reject, yet...in some cases he does and if anything, increases accountability.

MANY are called, few CHOSEN.

Many is not all and few is even less than the many....now the kicker.....

GOD IS SO RIGHTEOUS IN THE ETERNAL ASPECT OF SALVATION that EVEN HIS CALL TO THE ABOVE MANY IS IRREVOCABLE.

The GIFTS and CALLING OF GOD are IRREVOCABLE!

I agree with most of what you have written here.

I just like to remind people of the OT when they say God would never choose some and not choose others. That is obviously not a biblical statement to make.

So then when they make a blanket statement about Calvinism because of this erroneous thought it is very easy to show that it is their WISH and not actually biblical fact. No matter how many people vote their same way in this wish.


You must re-examine some of the things that you think about God in order to make scripture line up with what you think.


Is God Sovereign? Yes? Then you agree with Calvinism.

God is not Sovereign, people are sovereign and have the power of Salvation if they choose? Then you disagree with Calvinism. And probably half the rest of the facts of the bible.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: Is a higher percentage of people saved that have not heard the gospel?

So I would think he would place more people who he knows have the potential for accepting the things of God in the time of the gospel rather than in the time before the gospel. So that would mean a higher percentage of people are saved during the time of the law and the gospel than before. But this is getting into belly button territory, if you know what I mean.

Well, that was a dirty question in that I think it impossible to show one way or another.

Your answer was interesting. You say "he would place more people who he knows have the potential for accepting the things of God in the time of the gospel'. Since we both believe God knows who will believe and using your conjecture ... maybe God placed everyone He knew would not believe in a position to not hear the gospel. Highly speculative. That would make of us happy as I believe one cannot be saved without hearing the gospel.

 

[Judges1318]

...these are not verses showing how one that has not heard the gospel is saved. That's what I want you to show: verses explaining how those who have not heard the gospel are saved.

Romans 2:12-16 does explain how one is judged in the absence of exposure to the law and the gospel.
In their case, how they respond to what they have been exposed to--the law of conscience and nature--shows if they have humbled themselves by faith to the higher power they know exists, but whom they do not know by name.

Just as we who have been exposed to the law and the gospel show if we have humbled ourselves by faith to the Father and the Son by whether or not the law is written on our hearts.

God holds a person accountable to what they have received, not what they haven't received, and judges accordingly.

 

[Judges1318]

... maybe God placed everyone He knew would not believe in a position to not hear the gospel.

And does that in order to serve his purpose.
Like during the time of Noah(?), and in these end-times.
Highly speculative, as you point out.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Some Jewish people had a Devine encounter with Yeshua. The spreading of the gospel is not restricted to human vessels.

I am not familiar with this situation. I am skeptical. I have not other comment.

So what happens to those who have not heard the word?they go to hell? Or are judged by their conscience?

Yes, they go to hell. (Faith cometh by hearing... they have not heard...therefore they do not have faith ... therefore hell)
Yes, they are judged by their conscious. Romans 1 talks about God's law being written on their hearts and therefore they are without excuse.

Aside: The reason the brought up this "Faith cometh by Hearing" is to discredit the idea that God loves everyone and show evidence of this by showing God does not give many people a chance to belief. (IMO)