"Antichrist": Broad Deception By Narrow Definition

[Ahwatukee]

Part II

(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

If the above is synonymous with the 6th seal as you believe, then how can you fit in the 7th seal, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments in between v.29 and v.30? You can't do it, because there's no room for them to take place, because Jesus returns to the earth to end the age in v.30. As I pointed out to you in a previous post, Matt.24:29 and the 6th seal, though similar, have to be two different events which take place at different times. Remember in the previous post that I showed you the differences between the two:

Matthew ========================= Revelation

No earthquake ---------------------------- Great earthquake

Sun darkened ---------------------------- Sun turned dark like sakcloth

Moon darkened --------------------------- Moon turns blood red

Stars fall from heaven to earth -------- Stars fall from heaven to earth


(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So, as I pointed out in my previous post, there are some differences in comparing Matt.24 to the 6th seal which cannot be ignored or written off as not being significant.

Also, I don't think there is a distinction between Gentiles and Jew when it comes to the Body of Christ (church). Not only that, but the first members of the church, were Jews, the Apostles. Not to mention the Jews at Pentecost in Acts Chapter 2.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

You are correct, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile who believe in Christ which are those who make up the church. However, there is a difference to the unbelieving nation of Israel of whom the scripture is speaking of in Dan.9:27, Matt.24 and Rev.12. When the Lord appears to gather his church, all of those Jews and Gentiles who have died and believed in Christ from beginning to end, will rise first. After that, those Jews and Gentiles who are still alive in Christ, will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

The church which is made up of both Jew and Gentile, dead and living, will be resurrected and caught up when the Lord appears. It is the unbelieving nation of Israel that God is going to deal with after the church has been gathered. The antichrist will make a seven year covenant with Israel allowing them to rebuild their long awaited temple at the beginning of the seven years, where they will begin to make sacrifices and offering according to the Law. In the middle of the seven years, the antichrist will stop the sacrifices and offerings and will set up that abomination in the temple within the holy place. This is the signal for them to flee out into the wilderness where they will be cared for by God for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And which is where they will be cared for by God until Christ returns to end the age.

Hopefully that makes sense and if that's the case, then there is no "Great Tribulation Saints" referred to as "Gentiles," from which you mentioned.

Well regarding what you said above, it tells me that you have a lot more studying to do. Because the scripture directly identifies them as great tribulation saints and also as Gentiles. Below is the scripture:

==========================================================
After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
=========================================================

Every nation, tribe, people and language would identify this group as being Gentiles, wouldn't you agree?

Also, it is said that this great multitude comes out of the great tribulation, ergo, great tribulation saints.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
(3) Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
(4) who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

"That Day" is referring to "the Day of the Lord" which was mentioned in the previous verse. The Day of the Lord is the time of God's wrath. Where the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to Him, is a blessed event which takes place just prior to the Day of the Lord. The church cannot and will not enter that time period, because it would mean that God would be punishing the righteous with wicked. These are the details that you are ignoring. Your holding on to the ones that support your belief and are ignoring or distorting the ones that don't support your belief. I personal have never approached scripture in this way, because I have always desired to know the truth of God's word and not just adopt someone else's belief. I take in the whole word of God to come to my conclusion on any given Biblical topic. Satan's deception is very bad these days in that, people don't even know they are being deceived.

Revelation 13:6-7
(6) Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
(7) It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

The saints that the beast is given authority to make war and conquer, will be the great tribulation saints, not the church. The church is not even mentioned during the narrative of God's wrath.

So personally I'd like to warn people about being deceived from false teachings, which is exactly what Jesus warned us of. It would be horrible if we get caught with our pants down, then all of a sudden we get blind sided. Meaning it would be bad to assume that we won't be going through the Great Tribulation.

That is why it is paramount to understanding the reasons why believers in Christ cannot and will not be on the earth during the time of God wrath, which is the tribulation/great tribulation period. I have given you the reasons, but you have rejected them. Just because of the fact that Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, is enough to understand that the church cannot go through God's wrath.

The Apostles were martyred, and there's martyrdom happening now in different countries.

Oh, if I could only count how many times have I contended against the false apologetic that you have said above!

This error stems from not understanding the difference between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have vs. God's coming unprecedented wrath. Understand this! All of the trials and persecutions that the apostles and the first century church suffered was at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. Therefore, they were not suffering the wrath of God, but those common trials and tribulations that Jesus said we would experience. However, what is coming will be God's direct wrath being poured out upon the whole earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is these plagues of God's wrath that believers are not appointed to suffer because they will be purposefully be coming from God. When one believes he/she is credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God through the Lord's shed blood. Yet, you and others want to put the church through God's wrath right along with unbelievers. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And the tribulation period will be exactly that, God's punishment.

 

[TruthSeekerJG]

The 7 vials are the Wrath of God.

Go look at the "sixth seal" row in my Order of Events chart - along with parallel scriptures.

I know and also agree that the 7 bowls or vials are the Wrath of God lol. I'm not seeing your "6th seal" row in "Order of Events."

 

[1christian1]

It is not that I disagree with, or was saying is un-Biblical Oy, it is this:


Jesus is the only way to the Father. He said that, too, right?

Was'nt Jesus speaking to the Jew's when He said this because they did'nt believe that god had sent him to save them?

 

[Magenta]

Was'nt Jesus speaking to the Jew's when He said this because they did'nt believe that god had sent him to save them?

Jesus came to seek and save the lost, not just of Israel. Do you not think those words apply to us, and all?

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

 

[TruthSeekerJG]

Prior to the beginning of God's wrath, the Lord will appear and call up His church. He does not return to the earth at this time, but will specifically come to gather His church and take them back to the Father's house (John 14:1-3, I Thess.4:13-18).

It is paramount to understand that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being two separate events, which take place at different times and for different purposes.

By putting the church through the time of God's wrath, you are ignoring the underlying principle of Christ already having experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. You can't just grab one scripture and ignore another. All information has to be considered.

Hey Ahwatukee,

Let's talk point by point if that's alright. How are the "Tribulation Saints" suffering the Wrath of God then? There's a contradiction going on. Not only that, but the Sixth Seal specifically talks about the Day of Gods Wrath. Meaning that 6 seals are already broken before the mention of God's Wrath.

Revelation 6:12-17
(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
(15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So can you please explain that, including scripture?

Just these points.

-Tribulation Saints going through the Wrath of God
-The Wrath of God includes the Seals

Thankful for the dialogue and looking foreword to your response.

 

[TruthSeekerJG]

Meant to include this quote from you as well.

That said, we are still in the 'what is now' part of what John was told to write. Once the Lord gathers His church, then the 'what is now' will end and the 'what take place later' will begin, which is the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

 

[DWR]

Hey Ahwatukee,

Let's talk point by point if that's alright. How are the "Tribulation Saints" suffering the Wrath of God then? There's a contradiction going on. Not only that, but the Sixth Seal specifically talks about the Day of Gods Wrath. Meaning that 6 seals are already broken before the mention of God's Wrath.

Revelation 6:12-17
(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
(15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So can you please explain that, including scripture?

Just these points.

-Tribulation Saints going through the Wrath of God
-The Wrath of God includes the Seals

Thankful for the dialogue and looking foreword to your response.

To understand what this says you must understand who is saying this and why they are saying it.
Some believe these evil men who have just suffered the greatest earthquake in history are announcing that God's wrath has come , but I prefer to believe the angles who announce the wrath has come when the seventh trump sounds.
Some will tell you the seals and trumps are the wrath of God, but Jesus calls this time great tribulation.

Believe what you want, but do not accept someone's belief just because they present themselves as an authority on the subjest.

 

[1christian1]

Was'nt Jesus speaking to the Jew's when He said this because they did'nt believe that god had sent him to save them?

* God

 

[1christian1]

Jesus came to seek and save the lost, not just of Israel. Do you not think those words apply to us, and all?

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

What do you think Jesus meant by " I am the way the truth and the life." May I ask what bible you have?
People have so many interpretation's of what Jesus meant as a metaphor. And what He meant as literal.
Like "The Last Supper" "This IS my body, which has been given up for you, Take and eat of it" I take that as literal. What do you think?

 

[TruthSeekerJG]

To understand what this says you must understand who is saying this and why they are saying it.
Some believe these evil men who have just suffered the greatest earthquake in history are announcing that God's wrath has come , but I prefer to believe the angles who announce the wrath has come when the seventh trump sounds.
Some will tell you the seals and trumps are the wrath of God, but Jesus calls this time great tribulation.

Believe what you want, but do not accept someone's belief just because they present themselves as an authority on the subjest.

I agree. Read the Word for yourself like the Bereans did. Pray to God for Him to reveal it to us and depend on Him. He also brings sound teachers to teach us. All understanding, knowledge, and wisdom comes from Him.

 

[Magenta]

What do you think Jesus meant by " I am the way the truth and the life." May I ask what bible you have?
People have so many interpretation's of what Jesus meant as a metaphor. And what He meant as literal.
Like "The Last Supper" "This IS my body, which has been given up for you, Take and eat of it" I take that as literal. What do you think?

I think and believe all power and authority has been given to Jesus.

I think and believe Jesus holds the keys to life and death.

I think and believe He is the beginning and end, first and last, the alpha and omega.

I think and believe He is the ONLY way to the Father, just as He said.

I think and believe Jesus is the light and life of men, the ground of our being.

I think and believe He came to seek and save the lost.

I think and believe Jesus has the power to save any who put their faith in HIM.

I think and believe Jesus lived a perfect live, died on the
cross for our sins, and three days later He arose from death.

I have read a number of different Bible versions/translations over the years

As far as I know/remember, they all the same thing on this matter. He is the only way.

Before Christians were called Christians, they were referred to as followers of The Way.

I think and believe Jesus is the way. He is the narrow path. He is the gate. He is the door. He is the good shepherd.

I think and believe Jesus is God incarnate in the flesh, and He
sits at the right hand of the Father. He and the Father are one.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life
to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand,"

If one follows/believes in some other god, it is a false god.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Do you not think those words apply to us, and all?

 

[tourist]

Why do you think Prince Charles being the anti Christ is funny? I have a different belief in what the anti Christ is but do you have a reason why you think it's funny or are you just condescending?

I thought the part about the royal family to be alien lizards even more amusing. There was a song years ago by the Sex Pistols with the lyrics "God save the queen, she ain't a human being". Maybe that group was on to something. Just kidding.

 

[GaryA]

I'm not seeing your "6th seal" row in "Order of Events."

It is the fourth row from the top, running from 'Trumpet 1' to 'Vial 7'.

 

[GaryA]

People have so many interpretation's of what Jesus meant as a metaphor. And what He meant as literal.
Like "The Last Supper" "This IS my body, which has been given up for you, Take and eat of it" I take that as literal. What do you think?

Did you miss the part where He took bread and broke it . . . ?

Do you not think that was literal?

Do you really believe that He lopped off some part of His body and divided it up into pieces and gave it to them to eat?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hey Ahwatukee,

Let's talk point by point if that's alright. How are the "Tribulation Saints" suffering the Wrath of God then? There's a contradiction going on. Not only that, but the Sixth Seal specifically talks about the Day of Gods Wrath. Meaning that 6 seals are already broken before the mention of God's Wrath.

Revelation 6:12-17
(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
(15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(17) For the great day of his wrath [has come]; and who shall be able to stand?

So can you please explain that, including scripture?

Good day to you!

The scripture that you bring up "For the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it" is misinterpreted. How many interpret this is that, God's wrath only begins after this announcement and therefore does not include the previous seals. Regarding this, the same announcement is made at the sounding of the 7th trumpet by the twenty four elders:

"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.

Therefore, if we were to use the same reasoning that God's wrath begins only after the announcement at the 6th seal, then we would have to apply the same meaning at the announcement of God's wrath at the sounding of the 7th trumpet as well, meaning that God's wrath would begin after the 7th trumpet. The answer is found in the two words 'has come.' When expositors read these, they assume that it means God's wrath follows the announcement, i.e. as though God's wrath is about to start. However, those two words are in the Greek aorist indicative active tense, which is referring to God's wrath in its entirety, meaning that it includes the wrath that will have already taken place up to that point and the wrath that is still to come. In conclusion, the announcement of God's wrath at the 6th seal includes seals 1 thru 5 and the announcement at the 7th trumpet includes seals 1 thru 7 and trumpets 1 thru 7 and includes the seven bowl judgments that are still to take place from that point in Revelation, referring to God's entire wrath. In other words 'has come' is saying 'everything that has already happened (seals 1-5) and everything that is still to take place is because God's wrath has come. Otherwise, you have a problem with claiming that God's wrath only begins after the opening of the 6th seal, because the same announcement is made at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

|-------------------------------------------The great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it -------------------------------|
|--------------------------------------------------------S E A L S ----- T R U M P E T S -----B O W L S --------------------------------------------|

We also have to keep in mind, that it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals, which means that He is responsible for the resulting fatalities, ergo, God's wrath.

Just these points.

-Tribulation Saints going through the Wrath of God

Jesus warns believers throughout His word to be watching and ready for His appearing, so that we don't get caught in that time period of God's wrath. Below is an example of this warning to His disciples and therefore to all believers:

"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day (God's wrath) will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

The saints of that time will go through the tribulation/great tribulation, simply because they will not have been believers in Christ prior to the gathering of the church, as well those who will have gone back into the world and willfully living according to the sinful nature. In fact, I believe there will be many claiming to be in Christ who will have done what the Lord warns about above and because of not being ready, that day will close on them like a trap i.e. they will be caught in that period of God's wrath, which follows the gathering of the church. These great tribulation saints will realize their error and will know what they will must do in order to gain eternal life, which will be to keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and to not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark. As the scripture states regarding them "they did not love their lives so much as to shy away from death." Unfortunately, just by being on the earth they will be exposed to all of God's wrath the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and whatever the plagues the two witnesses bring that are going to take place on the earth.

-The Wrath of God includes the Seals

Already answered this one above

Thankful for the dialogue and looking foreword to your response.

I also look forward to and enjoy the debate. Forgive me if I seem rigid about these issues. The Spirit drew me to end-time events from when God first called me, which was over 45 years ago. So since then, I have gone over these Biblical issues with a fine tooth comb, so to speak and continue to do so. Therefore, I have already looked at everything from every angle, inside out and upside down. Because of this, everything that you and others bring up, the answer is already at my finger tips ready to respond, because I already know the answers and where the scriptures are to support them.

We have a big problem in the world today, which is that God's word is under attack from every angle and is being distorted by many. Satan doesn't have to do much deceiving himself. He just starts a falsity of God's word through the false teachings of others and then just sits back and watches it spread like a virus. These people are the carriers, many of which don't even know that they are carriers. I think of it like the Raid traps for ants. A few ants go into the D-Con box and take some poison back which infects the entire colony. And that is what is going on today. People read or hear the false teachings of men given by Satan, believe and adopt it and then begin to spread it as though it was God's word.

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." - 2 Timothy 2:4

 

[Ahwatukee]

Meant to include this quote from you as well.

I believe that I described the meaning of "what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later" in the previous post.

We are currently in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write and the "what must take place later" will begin after the church has been caught up.

 

[1christian1]

I think and believe all power and authority has been given to Jesus.

I think and believe Jesus holds the keys to life and death.

I think and believe He is the beginning and end, first and last, the alpha and omega.

I think and believe He is the ONLY way to the Father, just as He said.

I think and believe Jesus is the light and life of men, the ground of our being.

I think and believe He came to seek and save the lost.

I think and believe Jesus has the power to save any who put their faith in HIM.

I think and believe Jesus lived a perfect live, died on the
cross for our sins, and three days later He arose from death.

I have read a number of different Bible versions/translations over the years

As far as I know/remember, they all the same thing on this matter. He is the only way.

Before Christians were called Christians, they were referred to as followers of The Way.

I think and believe Jesus is the way. He is the narrow path. He is the gate. He is the door. He is the good shepherd.

I think and believe Jesus is God incarnate in the flesh, and He
sits at the right hand of the Father. He and the Father are one.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life
to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand,"

If one follows/believes in some other god, it is a false god.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Do you not think those words apply to us, and all?

Did you know that Israeli's forbid the new testament in their libraries? the Muslims come from one of the 7 tribes, right? They warred for 200 year's over the "Holy land" (Christians and Muslims). In Africa, Every Catholic has been killed trying to spread Jesus' word in that part of the world. I don't know Magenta. I find it totally laughable how people here in America sit here on their laurel's Preaching that
all you have to do is believe Jesus died for your sin's and you will be born again, be saved, all the while 100's of 1000's of people die for their beliefs in God. "Christians here are all good with their president gassing people in the street's so that he get a pic of himself holding up a bible ( upside down)
what ever happened to "thou shalt not use thy Lord's name in vain"? I find this more of a hypocritic oath
to God. There is nothing Godly about this. They are like little children, whistling in the dark hoping and praying that Jesus won't see them for who they are? No judgement , just observation...

 

[Magenta]

Did you know that Israeli's forbid the new testament in their libraries? the Muslims come from one of the 7 tribes, right? They warred for 200 year's over the "Holy land" (Christians and Muslims). In Africa, Every Catholic has been killed trying to spread Jesus' word in that part of the world. I don't know Magenta. I find it totally laughable how people here in America sit here on their laurel's Preaching that
all you have to do is believe Jesus died for your sin's and you will be born again, be saved, all the while 100's of 1000's of people die for their beliefs in God. "Christians here are all good with their president gassing people in the street's so that he get a pic of himself holding up a bible ( upside down)
what ever happened to "thou shalt not use thy Lord's name in vain"? I find this more of a hypocritic oath
to God. There is nothing Godly about this. They are like little children, whistling in the dark hoping and praying that Jesus won't see them for who they are? No judgement , just observation...

You still have not answered the question God decided to drown the whole world at one time (aside from Noah and his family and the animals on the ark) because the thoughts of men were only evil all the time. Has human nature changed? Is there some other way to God in your view? Isn't the whole purpose of the Bible to show us Who God is? In Christianity God has a Son. In Islam such a belief is blasphemy.

 

[1christian1]

Did you miss the part where He took bread and broke it . . . ?

Do you not think that was literal?

Do you really believe that He lopped off some part of His body and divided it up into pieces and gave it to them to eat?

You do know that I was talking about the Eucharist ?

 

[Magenta]

You do know that I was talking about the Eucharist ?

You mentioned it by way of evading the question, yes, I am aware