"Antichrist": Broad Deception By Narrow Definition
- Thread starter Phoneman-777
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Christians today need to understand what this is referring to - that the Jews circa 70 A.D. understood very well.
The AoD has already occurred.
Not so much for correction; but, for a 'help' . . .
Please see:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
(And, feel free to tell me what you think.)
The AoD has already occurred.
Not so much for correction; but, for a 'help' . . .
Please see:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
(And, feel free to tell me what you think.)
Hey Gary A,
For sure I'll check it out. Looks interesting
. What's the AoD? Also, what are you referring to in 70 AD? If you set up a new thread, holler! I myself am just getting into Revelation lately. My Dad has been the one who has been studying revelation for a while. Here's his link http://www.revelationunderstoodcommentary.com/
Some things I noticed or maybe I can help with by scripture:
Paul talks about the "last trump," or trumpet sound:
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jesus talks about the "great sound of a trumpet" before the elect are gathered:
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Order of events look good based upon what I've been understanding from the Word. Again, I'm still learning about the seals, trumpets, pre wrath, and bowls of wrath.
I'll keep looking at your chart. Might need to condense it if possible, because the empty cells kinda makes it a pain to scroll around. Just a suggestion! Keep it going though!
For sure I'll check it out. Looks interesting
. What's the AoD? Also, what are you referring to in 70 AD? If you set up a new thread, holler! I myself am just getting into Revelation lately. My Dad has been the one who has been studying revelation for a while. Here's his link http://www.revelationunderstoodcommentary.com/ Some things I noticed or maybe I can help with by scripture:
Paul talks about the "last trump," or trumpet sound:
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jesus talks about the "great sound of a trumpet" before the elect are gathered:
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Order of events look good based upon what I've been understanding from the Word. Again, I'm still learning about the seals, trumpets, pre wrath, and bowls of wrath.
I'll keep looking at your chart. Might need to condense it if possible, because the empty cells kinda makes it a pain to scroll around. Just a suggestion! Keep it going though!
Hey Gary A,
For sure I'll check it out. Looks interesting. What's the AoD? Also, what are you referring to in 70 AD? If you set up a new thread, holler! I myself am just getting into Revelation lately. My Dad has been the one who has been studying revelation for a while. Here's his link http://www.revelationunderstoodcommentary.com/
Some things I noticed or maybe I can help with by scripture:
Paul talks about the "last trump," or trumpet sound:
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jesus talks about the "great sound of a trumpet" before the elect are gathered:
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Order of events look good based upon what I've been understanding from the Word. Again, I'm still learning about the seals, trumpets, pre wrath, and bowls of wrath.
I'll keep looking at your chart. Might need to condense it if possible, because the empty cells kinda makes it a pain to scroll around. Just a suggestion! Keep it going though!
For sure I'll check it out. Looks interesting
. What's the AoD? Also, what are you referring to in 70 AD? If you set up a new thread, holler! I myself am just getting into Revelation lately. My Dad has been the one who has been studying revelation for a while. Here's his link http://www.revelationunderstoodcommentary.com/Some things I noticed or maybe I can help with by scripture:
Paul talks about the "last trump," or trumpet sound:
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jesus talks about the "great sound of a trumpet" before the elect are gathered:
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Order of events look good based upon what I've been understanding from the Word. Again, I'm still learning about the seals, trumpets, pre wrath, and bowls of wrath.
I'll keep looking at your chart. Might need to condense it if possible, because the empty cells kinda makes it a pain to scroll around. Just a suggestion! Keep it going though!
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/whoso-readeth-let-him-understand.192848/
Part 1
Hello TruthSeekerJG!
All that you have listed above in red is regarding Israel. I would also think that this information would also be useful to the great tribulation saints. In regards to Israel, see the following:
* The abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place
* Those in Judea flee to the mountains
* Pray that your fleeing may not take place in the winter or on the Sabbath
The abomination will be some type of idolatrous image that will be set up in the holy place within the temple which is the room just outside of the holy of holies. And the the Lord's warning for those in Judea to flee to the mountains along with the mention of them praying that their time of fleeing not take place on the Sabbath, are all references to Israel and not the church.
The setting of the abomination is what kicks off the great tribulation, which is also known as the time of Jacob's trouble and which is the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. As stated above, there will also be the great number of white robed saints from every nation, tribe, people and language on the earth during this time, who are intorduced in Rev.7:9-17. These will all be Gentile's who will have become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. Once the church is gone and that ruler, the antichrist makes his seven year covenent with Israel, this will be a sign for the great tribulation saints that they have 3 1/2 years before they will be persecuted by the beast (Rev.13:5-7).
The reverence to those in Judea fleeing to the mountains, is synonymous with Revelation 12:6, 14, where after Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven, he pursues the woman/Israel, but the woman flees out into the desert to that place that God will have prepared for her, where she will be cared for during that 1260 days, which again is that last 3 1/2 year period before Christ returns to the earth to end the age. The reference to praying that their fleeing not take place on the Sabbath, is also in reference to Israel. For the church is not under the Law.
This all has to do with the decree that was upon Israel and Jerusalem in Daniel 9:24-27 with Jerusalem being restored and rebuilt in 7 seven year periods or 49 years. Then with 62 seven year periods (434 years) at the end of which the Anointed One would be cut off, which is Christ crucified. This completed 69 of the 70 seven year periods, with one seven year period to be fulfilled. When the Anointed One was cut off, God put paused, if you will, that last seven years and began to build His church, which is still in the process of being built. Once the church has been gathered, then God will pick up right where He left off with His people Israel in fulfillment of that last seven years, complete with temple and sacrifices just as it was before Christ was cut off. During this time is when God will also pour out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
So, all of the above in red is relevant to Israel and will also be a time marker for the great tribulation saints. For if I was apart of the great tribulation saints of that time, I would know that once that covenant was made, I alert me as being the start of that seven year period. I would also know that I would have 3 1/2 years before that ruler will break the covenant with Israel and set up that abomination in the holy place within the temple. Once that event takes place, that is when Israel flees out to that place prepared for her in the desert and will also be the time when the beast will proclaim himself to be God or anything that is called God or worshiped (2 Thess.2:4) and will make war and conquer the great tribulation saints, who again are all identified as Gentile believers.
(Continued)
-
1
- Show all
Part II
Hello again, TruthSeekerJG!
As I am sure that you will agree, both I Corinthians 15:51-53 and I Thessalonians 4:13-18 is referring to the event of the gathering of the church and which has nothing to do with Matthew 24. As I have continue to make known, it is important to not pigeonhole words, such as the word 'trumpet.' For example, in Matthew 24:31 when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, it is stated that He sends His angels out with a "loud trumpet call." Regarding this, many erroneously interpret that loud trumpet call as being the same event of the last trumpet at the gathering of the church, which are two different trumpets.
The last trumpet = The living church is changed and caught up with those who will have just resurrected prior God's wrath
Angels sent out with a loud trumpet = Takes place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age and a signal for the angels to gather the righteous who will have survived the entire tribulation of God's wrath.
For many years this scripture of Matthew 24:29, as being synonymous with the 6th seal of Revelation 6:13-14, though similar in description, did not sit right with me as the two being the same event. And here is why:
=============================================
Matthew 24:29
* Sun is darkened
* Moon will not give its light
* The stars will fall from heaven to the earth
Revelation 6:13-14
* Great earthquake
* Sun turned dark like sackcloth of hair
* Moon turns blood red
* Stars fall to the earth like unripe figs
Right away we can see that though both scriptures look similar, there are infact differences, such as no great earthquake mentioned in Matt.24:29 and no mention of the moon turning blood red, as it does at the 6th seal.
In addition to all of this, the sun and moon being darkened in Matt.24:29 takes place in close proximity with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Where the 6th seal event is followed by the 7th seal, the trumpets and bowl judgments. That said, since the darkening of the sun and moon in Matt.24:29 is the immediate sign of the Lord's return to the earth, there would be no way to fit in the 7th seal, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments which follow. There's just not enough time in between Matt.24:29 and 30 to fit them in there.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
"At that time" would be referring to when the sun is darkened and the moon not giving its light, which is when the Son of Man will appear in heaven. In contrast, the opening of the 6th seal will be followed by the 7th seal, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments. My point is that, you can't fit the 7th seal, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments as taking place in between Matt.24:29 and Matt 24:30. Keep in mind that the 5th trumpet alone is five months in duration.
The conclusion then is that thought these two events are somewhat similar in description, they are actually two separate events which take place at different times during the tribulation period. In further support of this, there are several events which are described regarding the sun, moon and stars mentioned throughout Revelation. So though they look similar, they are in fact different events
First of all, the claim that the 7th trumpet as being the 'last trumpet' is false and here is why.
Last Trumpet = The blessed event of the church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air
Seventh Trumpet = One of plagues of God's wrath with the results being Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven to the earth
Conclusion: The last trumpet and the seventh trumpet are different trumpets signifying different events, with one being a great blessing and the other a plague of wrath, which is actually the 3rd woe.
As I continue to make known, by putting the church as being here during the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, it would put them on the earth during the time of God's wrath which believers are not appointed to suffer. And that because Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer. When we believed, we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God through faith in the shed blood of Christ. Since God's wrath has been satisfied for the believer, God's wrath no longer rests upon us and therefore, we must be removed prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath.
These are all my conclusions based on the scriptures that I have provided.
Look forward to continuing in fellowship with you. Please let me know what you think regarding these things.
Hello again, TruthSeekerJG!
As I am sure that you will agree, both I Corinthians 15:51-53 and I Thessalonians 4:13-18 is referring to the event of the gathering of the church and which has nothing to do with Matthew 24. As I have continue to make known, it is important to not pigeonhole words, such as the word 'trumpet.' For example, in Matthew 24:31 when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, it is stated that He sends His angels out with a "loud trumpet call." Regarding this, many erroneously interpret that loud trumpet call as being the same event of the last trumpet at the gathering of the church, which are two different trumpets.
The last trumpet = The living church is changed and caught up with those who will have just resurrected prior God's wrath
Angels sent out with a loud trumpet = Takes place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age and a signal for the angels to gather the righteous who will have survived the entire tribulation of God's wrath.
For many years this scripture of Matthew 24:29, as being synonymous with the 6th seal of Revelation 6:13-14, though similar in description, did not sit right with me as the two being the same event. And here is why:
=============================================
Matthew 24:29
* Sun is darkened
* Moon will not give its light
* The stars will fall from heaven to the earth
Revelation 6:13-14
* Great earthquake
* Sun turned dark like sackcloth of hair
* Moon turns blood red
* Stars fall to the earth like unripe figs
Right away we can see that though both scriptures look similar, there are infact differences, such as no great earthquake mentioned in Matt.24:29 and no mention of the moon turning blood red, as it does at the 6th seal.
In addition to all of this, the sun and moon being darkened in Matt.24:29 takes place in close proximity with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Where the 6th seal event is followed by the 7th seal, the trumpets and bowl judgments. That said, since the darkening of the sun and moon in Matt.24:29 is the immediate sign of the Lord's return to the earth, there would be no way to fit in the 7th seal, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments which follow. There's just not enough time in between Matt.24:29 and 30 to fit them in there.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
"At that time" would be referring to when the sun is darkened and the moon not giving its light, which is when the Son of Man will appear in heaven. In contrast, the opening of the 6th seal will be followed by the 7th seal, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments. My point is that, you can't fit the 7th seal, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments as taking place in between Matt.24:29 and Matt 24:30. Keep in mind that the 5th trumpet alone is five months in duration.
The conclusion then is that thought these two events are somewhat similar in description, they are actually two separate events which take place at different times during the tribulation period. In further support of this, there are several events which are described regarding the sun, moon and stars mentioned throughout Revelation. So though they look similar, they are in fact different events
First of all, the claim that the 7th trumpet as being the 'last trumpet' is false and here is why.
Last Trumpet = The blessed event of the church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air
Seventh Trumpet = One of plagues of God's wrath with the results being Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven to the earth
Conclusion: The last trumpet and the seventh trumpet are different trumpets signifying different events, with one being a great blessing and the other a plague of wrath, which is actually the 3rd woe.
As I continue to make known, by putting the church as being here during the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, it would put them on the earth during the time of God's wrath which believers are not appointed to suffer. And that because Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer. When we believed, we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God through faith in the shed blood of Christ. Since God's wrath has been satisfied for the believer, God's wrath no longer rests upon us and therefore, we must be removed prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath.
These are all my conclusions based on the scriptures that I have provided.
Look forward to continuing in fellowship with you. Please let me know what you think regarding these things.
-
1
- Show all
Hey akwatukee,
Ok, I got a few questions to ask for the 1st part.
If Matthew 24 wasn't written to believers in Yeshua/Jesus as a whole, then who are the "elect" (v.31) at the Day of His Coming in the clouds (V.30)?
Unless you believe that the elect mentioned here isn't the Body of Christ (church), then there would have to be a 3rd coming right?
Not only that, but it clearly said "immediately after the tribulation" is when the elect will be taken up.
Matthew 24:29-31
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Also, I don't think there is a distinction between Gentiles and Jew when it comes to the Body of Christ (church). Not only that, but the first members of the church, were Jews, the Apostles. Not to mention the Jews at Pentecost in Acts Chapter 2.
How else was the church (Body of Christ) formed?
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Yes it said "Greek," but hopefully you get the context that there is no distinction in ethnic group, race, or skin color when it comes to being one in Christ, which means each member/believer serves as a part in the Body of Christ.
The word "church" doesn't serve any justice when we truly know the intended meaning, which again, is the Body of Christ. Once we step outside of the true meaning, then we might fall into the dangers of "Replacement Theology," by trying to make a distinction between Jew or Gentile, or church and gentile. Not only that, but anyone that wasn't apart of the nation of Israel, was from a Gentile Nation. Meaning we are Gentiles.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13
(12) For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
(13) For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
That was the whole point of Paul's ministry; was to minister to the Gentile Nations. How else would we have gotten the Good News/Gospel?
Hopefully that makes sense and if that's the case, then there is no "Great Tribulation Saints" referred to as "Gentiles," from which you mentioned. It's simply talking about the Body of Christ/Saints, the elect. Even said that there will be a "falling away" before the "son of perdition," which is the "beast," and that beast will have power to come after the saints.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
(3) Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
(4) who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
This is to the Greeks (Gentiles), and us, not just Israel.
Revelation 13:6-7
(6) Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
(7) It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
So personally I'd like to warn people about being deceived from false teachings, which is exactly what Jesus warned us of. It would be horrible if we get caught with our pants down, then all of a sudden we get blind sided. Meaning it would be bad to assume that we won't be going through the Great Tribulation. That's why we have the Word to warn us and prepare us. If we aren't willing to lose our lives for His sake, then we will lose it. I'd rather be prepared, then docile, how about you?
The Apostles were martyred, and there's martyrdom happening now in different countries. Sadly we live in a comfortable lifestyle that distorts the meaning of being a true believer in Jesus and what He and His disciples stood for, including what they went through.
Matthew 10:39 Jesus said, "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it."
Mark 13:22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Thankful for the reply. I'll check out the 2nd part of your response. Might reply, but this one is my main response. Looking foreword to yours.
Ok, I got a few questions to ask for the 1st part.
If Matthew 24 wasn't written to believers in Yeshua/Jesus as a whole, then who are the "elect" (v.31) at the Day of His Coming in the clouds (V.30)?
Unless you believe that the elect mentioned here isn't the Body of Christ (church), then there would have to be a 3rd coming right?
Not only that, but it clearly said "immediately after the tribulation" is when the elect will be taken up.
Matthew 24:29-31
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Also, I don't think there is a distinction between Gentiles and Jew when it comes to the Body of Christ (church). Not only that, but the first members of the church, were Jews, the Apostles. Not to mention the Jews at Pentecost in Acts Chapter 2.
How else was the church (Body of Christ) formed?
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Yes it said "Greek," but hopefully you get the context that there is no distinction in ethnic group, race, or skin color when it comes to being one in Christ, which means each member/believer serves as a part in the Body of Christ.
The word "church" doesn't serve any justice when we truly know the intended meaning, which again, is the Body of Christ. Once we step outside of the true meaning, then we might fall into the dangers of "Replacement Theology," by trying to make a distinction between Jew or Gentile, or church and gentile. Not only that, but anyone that wasn't apart of the nation of Israel, was from a Gentile Nation. Meaning we are Gentiles.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13
(12) For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
(13) For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
That was the whole point of Paul's ministry; was to minister to the Gentile Nations. How else would we have gotten the Good News/Gospel?
Hopefully that makes sense and if that's the case, then there is no "Great Tribulation Saints" referred to as "Gentiles," from which you mentioned. It's simply talking about the Body of Christ/Saints, the elect. Even said that there will be a "falling away" before the "son of perdition," which is the "beast," and that beast will have power to come after the saints.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
(3) Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
(4) who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
This is to the Greeks (Gentiles), and us, not just Israel.
Revelation 13:6-7
(6) Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
(7) It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
So personally I'd like to warn people about being deceived from false teachings, which is exactly what Jesus warned us of. It would be horrible if we get caught with our pants down, then all of a sudden we get blind sided. Meaning it would be bad to assume that we won't be going through the Great Tribulation. That's why we have the Word to warn us and prepare us. If we aren't willing to lose our lives for His sake, then we will lose it. I'd rather be prepared, then docile, how about you?
The Apostles were martyred, and there's martyrdom happening now in different countries. Sadly we live in a comfortable lifestyle that distorts the meaning of being a true believer in Jesus and what He and His disciples stood for, including what they went through.
Matthew 10:39 Jesus said, "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it."
Mark 13:22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Thankful for the reply. I'll check out the 2nd part of your response. Might reply, but this one is my main response. Looking foreword to yours.
That is a lovely sentiment perhaps but entirely un-Biblical
-
1
-
1
- Show all
No - it does not say that.
Take a closer look.
What it clearly says is that the things described in verse 29 occur immediately after the tribulation.
Study it carefully, and you should find a 3.5 year span of time embedded in verse 29.
The 'event' that marks the end of the Great Tribulation is not the return of Jesus; rather, it is the start of the time of the Two Witnesses and the Trumpet events - which the Two Witnesses cause to happen.
And then (verse 30) - Jesus returns. (Which, I believe, will be very shortly/soon after the Two Witnesses are raised from the dead.)
Take a closer look.
What it clearly says is that the things described in verse 29 occur immediately after the tribulation.
Study it carefully, and you should find a 3.5 year span of time embedded in verse 29.
The 'event' that marks the end of the Great Tribulation is not the return of Jesus; rather, it is the start of the time of the Two Witnesses and the Trumpet events - which the Two Witnesses cause to happen.
And then (verse 30) - Jesus returns. (Which, I believe, will be very shortly/soon after the Two Witnesses are raised from the dead.)
-
1
- Show all
Oops! I jumped the gun trying to make a point. It clearly said, "the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:." (v.29)
Which it seems to fall within the context of the sixth seal. Some believe that the trumpets fall in line with the seals for the last 3 1/2 years, then at the "last trump" we will be gathered up. The 7th trumpet isn't necessarily a "judgment," but that the kingdoms of the world are our Lords. Then after the last trump, then the pre-wrath of the 7 angels with plagues and the bowls of wrath are poured out, which seems to align with the sixth seal because that's where they talk about that the day of "His Wrath has come." (v.17)
Revelation 6:12-17
(12) I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
(13) And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
(14) Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
(15) And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
(16) and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
(17) For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Revelation 11:15-19
(15) Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
(16) And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
(17) saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
(18) The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."
(19) Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
Verse 19 seems to parallel the 7th seal.
Revelation 8:5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
What do you think? Thankful for the heads up and appreciate input that falls in line with scripture. Iron sharpening iron, and hopefully able to renew our mind in order to get to the truth.
Which it seems to fall within the context of the sixth seal. Some believe that the trumpets fall in line with the seals for the last 3 1/2 years, then at the "last trump" we will be gathered up. The 7th trumpet isn't necessarily a "judgment," but that the kingdoms of the world are our Lords. Then after the last trump, then the pre-wrath of the 7 angels with plagues and the bowls of wrath are poured out, which seems to align with the sixth seal because that's where they talk about that the day of "His Wrath has come." (v.17)
Revelation 6:12-17
(12) I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
(13) And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
(14) Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
(15) And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
(16) and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
(17) For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Revelation 11:15-19
(15) Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
(16) And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
(17) saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
(18) The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."
(19) Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
Verse 19 seems to parallel the 7th seal.
Revelation 8:5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
What do you think? Thankful for the heads up and appreciate input that falls in line with scripture. Iron sharpening iron, and hopefully able to renew our mind in order to get to the truth.
Oops! I jumped the gun trying to make a point. It clearly said, "the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:." (v.29)
Which it seems to fall within the context of the sixth seal. Some believe that the trumpets fall in line with the seals for the last 3 1/2 years, then at the "last trump" we will be gathered up. The 7th trumpet isn't necessarily a "judgment," but that the kingdoms of the world are our Lords. Then after the last trump, then the pre-wrath of the 7 angels with plagues and the bowls of wrath are poured out, which seems to align with the sixth seal because that's where they talk about that the day of "His Wrath has come." (v.17)
Revelation 6:12-17
(12) I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
(13) And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
(14) Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
(15) And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
(16) and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
(17) For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Revelation 11:15-19
(15) Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
(16) And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
(17) saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
(18) The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."
(19) Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
Verse 19 seems to parallel the 7th seal.
Revelation 8:5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
What do you think? Thankful for the heads up and appreciate input that falls in line with scripture. Iron sharpening iron, and hopefully able to renew our mind in order to get to the truth.
Which it seems to fall within the context of the sixth seal. Some believe that the trumpets fall in line with the seals for the last 3 1/2 years, then at the "last trump" we will be gathered up. The 7th trumpet isn't necessarily a "judgment," but that the kingdoms of the world are our Lords. Then after the last trump, then the pre-wrath of the 7 angels with plagues and the bowls of wrath are poured out, which seems to align with the sixth seal because that's where they talk about that the day of "His Wrath has come." (v.17)
Revelation 6:12-17
(12) I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
(13) And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
(14) Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
(15) And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
(16) and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
(17) For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Revelation 11:15-19
(15) Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
(16) And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
(17) saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
(18) The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."
(19) Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
Verse 19 seems to parallel the 7th seal.
Revelation 8:5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
What do you think? Thankful for the heads up and appreciate input that falls in line with scripture. Iron sharpening iron, and hopefully able to renew our mind in order to get to the truth.
Go look at the "sixth seal" row in my Order of Events chart - along with parallel scriptures.
Good day TruthSeekerJG!
As the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, He sends out his angels to gather the saints who will have made it alive through the great tribulation period and are introduced in Revelation 7:9-17, as well as the remnant of Israel:
============================================================================
After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.
Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”
“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”
So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
=============================================================================
The very fact that the elder is asking John who this group after he just got done writing the seven letters to the church, demonstrates that this group is not the church. In fact John tells the elder that he doesn't know who they are. Then the elder says, "these are those who have come out of the great tribulation." These great tribulation saints will be those who will have come to Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. In further support of this, you will notice that the word 'ekklesia' translated as 'church' is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3. After that, the word church is never used again until chapter 19 where the church is alluded to as the bride where she receives her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. The actual word 'church' is not used again until Rev.22:16. This is not a coincidence, but a God given clue.
The key to understanding the chronology of Revelation is found in Rev.1:19 where John is told to write:
* what you have seen = Everything John wrote from Rev.1:1 to 1:19
* what is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches and also represents the entire church period
* what will take place later = Everything that takes place after the 'what is now,' i.e. after the church period
That said, we are still in the 'what is now' part of what John was told to write. Once the Lord gathers His church, then the 'what is now' will end and the 'what take place later' will begin, which is the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
The common mistake that expositors make with v.31 where it says that the Lord sends His angels out to gather His elect, is that they interpret that as the gathering of the church. However, the angels will be going to ends of the earth to gather the remnant of Israel and the great tribulation saints (Gentiles) who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period.
According to the parable of the wheat and weeds in Matt.13:24-29 which is also referring to when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, the angels go throughout the earth and "First" gather the weeds. These are the "one's taken" in the parable of "one taken and the other left." The angels will first gather the weeds and bring them back to Armageddon where they will be killed with the double-edged sword which proceeds from the Lords mouth (Rev.19:15, 21), which figuratively represents the word of God.
"Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations."
"The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh."
I would add that it is important to not pigeonhole words such as 'elect' which simply means those whom God has chosen. In other words, that word is not specific to only referring to Israel. Israel are the elect, the church is the elect and the great tribulation saints are the elect and the 144,000 are the elect:
=======================================
Strong's Concordance
eklektos: select, by impl. favorite
Original Word: ἐκλεκτός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: eklektos
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-lek-tos')
Definition: select, by implication favorite
Usage: chosen out, elect, choice, select, sometimes as subst: of those chosen out by God for the rendering of special service to Him (of the Hebrew race, particular Hebrews, the Messiah, and the Christians).
Why would there have to be a third coming?
Prior to the beginning of God's wrath, the Lord will appear and call up His church. He does not return to the earth at this time, but will specifically come to gather His church and take them back to the Father's house (John 14:1-3, I Thess.4:13-18).
It is paramount to understand that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being two separate events, which take place at different times and for different purposes.
By putting the church through the time of God's wrath, you are ignoring the underlying principle of Christ already having experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. You can't just grab one scripture and ignore another. All information has to be considered.
Just fyi, the scripture doesn't say that the elect will be taken up. It says that they are 'gathered together form the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other,' which is a reference to gathering them from every part of the earth. Remember, it is living people that the angels will be gathering, not dead people. Those elect that the angels gather will be those who will go into the millennial period and repopulate the earth.
(Continued)
As the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, He sends out his angels to gather the saints who will have made it alive through the great tribulation period and are introduced in Revelation 7:9-17, as well as the remnant of Israel:
============================================================================
After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.
Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”
“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”
So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
=============================================================================
The very fact that the elder is asking John who this group after he just got done writing the seven letters to the church, demonstrates that this group is not the church. In fact John tells the elder that he doesn't know who they are. Then the elder says, "these are those who have come out of the great tribulation." These great tribulation saints will be those who will have come to Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. In further support of this, you will notice that the word 'ekklesia' translated as 'church' is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3. After that, the word church is never used again until chapter 19 where the church is alluded to as the bride where she receives her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. The actual word 'church' is not used again until Rev.22:16. This is not a coincidence, but a God given clue.
The key to understanding the chronology of Revelation is found in Rev.1:19 where John is told to write:
* what you have seen = Everything John wrote from Rev.1:1 to 1:19
* what is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches and also represents the entire church period
* what will take place later = Everything that takes place after the 'what is now,' i.e. after the church period
That said, we are still in the 'what is now' part of what John was told to write. Once the Lord gathers His church, then the 'what is now' will end and the 'what take place later' will begin, which is the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
The common mistake that expositors make with v.31 where it says that the Lord sends His angels out to gather His elect, is that they interpret that as the gathering of the church. However, the angels will be going to ends of the earth to gather the remnant of Israel and the great tribulation saints (Gentiles) who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period.
According to the parable of the wheat and weeds in Matt.13:24-29 which is also referring to when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, the angels go throughout the earth and "First" gather the weeds. These are the "one's taken" in the parable of "one taken and the other left." The angels will first gather the weeds and bring them back to Armageddon where they will be killed with the double-edged sword which proceeds from the Lords mouth (Rev.19:15, 21), which figuratively represents the word of God.
"Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations."
"The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh."
I would add that it is important to not pigeonhole words such as 'elect' which simply means those whom God has chosen. In other words, that word is not specific to only referring to Israel. Israel are the elect, the church is the elect and the great tribulation saints are the elect and the 144,000 are the elect:
=======================================
Strong's Concordance
eklektos: select, by impl. favorite
Original Word: ἐκλεκτός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: eklektos
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-lek-tos')
Definition: select, by implication favorite
Usage: chosen out, elect, choice, select, sometimes as subst: of those chosen out by God for the rendering of special service to Him (of the Hebrew race, particular Hebrews, the Messiah, and the Christians).
Why would there have to be a third coming?
Prior to the beginning of God's wrath, the Lord will appear and call up His church. He does not return to the earth at this time, but will specifically come to gather His church and take them back to the Father's house (John 14:1-3, I Thess.4:13-18).
It is paramount to understand that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being two separate events, which take place at different times and for different purposes.
By putting the church through the time of God's wrath, you are ignoring the underlying principle of Christ already having experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. You can't just grab one scripture and ignore another. All information has to be considered.
Just fyi, the scripture doesn't say that the elect will be taken up. It says that they are 'gathered together form the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other,' which is a reference to gathering them from every part of the earth. Remember, it is living people that the angels will be gathering, not dead people. Those elect that the angels gather will be those who will go into the millennial period and repopulate the earth.
(Continued)