Catholicism vs Protestantism

[Wansvic]

Really?
On what do you base that claim?


Where?


You have come late into this discussion.
We've been through all that. Go back and read the posts.
,


Really? Was Paul slapping the face of our Savior Jesus Christ when he asked others to pray for him? - Eph 6:19-20, Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25, 2Thess 3:1

Saints are ordinary believers. Those consecrated to the worship and service of God. It is only through the indwelling Spirit of God that the disciples, God chose, did the powerful works. They were lowly individuals just like you and me that humbled themselves through repentance, etc. and were used of God. The Roman Catholic Church has given them a lofty spiritual distinction that does not exist in the word. (Rom 1:7, Phil 1:1)


The following scriptures express that the apostles were ordinary servants of God that were not to be given special recognition: (Acts 10:26, Luke 22:25-27, 2 Cor 12:6, Rev 19:10, 22:8-9)


I am guilty of not reading the posts about Mary. But what immediately comes to mind is Jesus' statement that blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it. This in response to someone stating that Mary was to be blessed for giving birth to Him. This is not to demean Mary but rather to point to where true blessing originates:

"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." Luke 11:27-28

I addressed your last comment in posts #2295 and #2298. Asking for others to come into agreement with you and pray to Jesus for something is entirely different than PRAYING to someone and asking them to intercede for you to Jesus.

 

[Jackson123]

Is the church build on Peter?

The word church can mean 3 thing

1. Building

Most Church building foundation is concrete, not Peter

2. Church mean Christian people

This Christian mean Christ follower, not Peter follower.

3. Teaching.

The foundation of Christian teaching is Christ teaching not human teaching.

 

[Dan_473]

So you don't believe Satan behind one world religion?

oh, he might be.

I've been hearing about Satan making a one-world religion since the 1970s.

back then people around me were all up in arms over the world council of churches.
that was sure to be the beginning of a one-world religion, they said.

50 years later, no one world religion.

there are interfaith gatherings, I've seen that.

funny story about an interfaith peace
march.
(I wasn't part of the march but I did witness them setting up in a parking lot.)

they had asked a Catholic priest to say a prayer before the March began.
he closed with something like "... in the name of our Lord Jesus, amen."

two of the Jewish people present objected very strongly.
it looked like one of them was about to punch the priest in the face.

the irony of it being at a peace March!

 

[Dan_473]

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Muslim together with us(catholic) adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day".

You don't need to interprate letter by letter, it mean

Catholic and Muslim adore the same God

If catholic adore Jesus, Muslim adore Jesus

If Muslim adore Allah, catholic adore allah

interesting conclusion, my brother Jackson!

using the method of not interpreting letter by letter,

"As I walked around, I looked carefully at the things you worship.

...you don’t know what you are worshiping. Now I am going to tell you about this ‘unknown god.’
He is the God who made the world."
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17&version=NIRV

the Athenians and Paul were worshiping the same God.

 

[Jackson123]

interesting conclusion, my brother Jackson!

using the method of not interpreting letter by letter,

"As I walked around, I looked carefully at the things you worship.

...you don’t know what you are worshiping. Now I am going to tell you about this ‘unknown god.’
He is the God who made the world."
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17&version=NIRV

the Athenians and Paul were worshiping the same God.

This is letter by letter but out of context

On ccc 841

The context is

One-World Church Expected This Year





According to the San Francisco Chronicle 1,"prayers, chants and incantations were offered to a dozen deities". But the tone... for the United Religions Organization was really set by a pantheistic ceremony in which children from around the world mingled water from over thirty so-called "sacred waters" in "a great bowl of unity",

Catholic Involvement​

The importance of the World Conference on Religion and Peace was recently underscored when the Vatican hosted the first session of its sixth General Assembly in November, 1994. The conference theme was "Healing the World: Religions for Peace". This was the first time an official interfaith conference had been convened at the Holy See. In his opening address, the Pope told the 900 representatives of the world's religions assembled in the Synod Hall that "religious leaders must clearly show that they are pledged to the promotion of peace" and religions must "engage in a dialogue of mutual understanding and peace on the basis of the values they share". He ended by remarking, "The Vatican is open to you. I hope you all return soon."

https://www.catholicculture.org/

 

[Jackson123]

oh, he might be.

I've been hearing about Satan making a one-world religion since the 1970s.

back then people around me were all up in arms over the world council of churches.
that was sure to be the beginning of a one-world religion, they said.

50 years later, no one world religion.

there are interfaith gatherings, I've seen that.

funny story about an interfaith peace
march.
(I wasn't part of the march but I did witness them setting up in a parking lot.)

they had asked a Catholic priest to say a prayer before the March began.
he closed with something like "... in the name of our Lord Jesus, amen."

two of the Jewish people present objected very strongly.
it looked like one of them was about to punch the priest in the face.

the irony of it being at a peace March!

So Satan may behind one world religion But you believe it start for more than 30 years ago, and never happen. Catholic culture. Org say RCC involve in this movement, is catholic.org lie and RCC not involve?

 

[Dan_473]

This is letter by letter but out of context

actually, I didn't quote from the passage letter by letter.

my wonderful Christian brother Jackson, did you read the passage?

 

[Dan_473]

So Satan may behind one world religion

well, maybe, maybe not.

But you believe it start for more than 30 years ago,

well back in the 1970s, about 50 years ago, people were talking about how the one world religion was just around the corner.

and never happen.

I don't see everyone in the world practicing the same religion, no.

Catholic culture. Org say RCC involve in this movement, is catholic.org lie and RCC not involve?

I don't doubt that the Catholic church is involved in some way, the Catholic church is involved in things all over the world.
I think the Vatican has an ambassador to the United Nations.

 

[Jackson123]

actually, I didn't quote from the passage letter by letter.

my wonderful Christian brother Jackson, did you read the passage?

Thank my brother Dan, I read that and compare to the whole picture of what bible talking about, and I don't think Paul believe they worship God in the way God want to.

In contrary, when I read ccc 841 and read the involvement of Vatican on one world religion as a context for ccc 841, so I believe catholic want Islam participate in one world religion, and ccc 841 is a tool, to make them joint
That is why catholic say we are adore the same God.

 

[Jackson123]

actually, I didn't quote from the passage letter by letter.

my wonderful Christian brother Jackson, did you read the passage?

Thank my brother Dan, I read that and compare to the whole picture of what bible talking about, and I don't think Paul believe they worship God in the way God want to.

In contrary, when I read ccc 841 and read the involvement of Vatican on one world religion as a context for ccc 841, so I believe catholic want Islam participate in one world religion, and ccc 841 is a tool, to make them joint
That is why catholic say we are adore the same God.

 

[Jackson123]

well back in the 1970s, about 50 years ago, people were talking about how the one world religion was just around the corner.

Because it has been 50 years and not happen, is that make you believe it will never happen?

I don't see everyone in the world practicing the same religion, no.

No in this sentence mean never happen or not until now?

I don't doubt that the Catholic church is involved in some way, the Catholic church is involved in things all over the world.

So you believe Catholic Church involve in the movement that may or may not create by Satan, am I correct?

 

[Reformyourself]

So are you my brother?
Are you doing God's will by insulting me?

So Sorry I insulted you bede...lost my patience. bit hormonal this week...thank The Lord your not married to me

 

[Bede]

So Sorry I insulted you bede...lost my patience. bit hormonal this week...thank The Lord your not married to me

Peace.

 

[Bede]

Saints are ordinary believers. Those consecrated to the worship and service of God. It is only through the indwelling Spirit of God that the disciples, God chose, did the powerful works. They were lowly individuals just like you and me that humbled themselves through repentance, etc. and were used of God. The Roman Catholic Church has given them a lofty spiritual distinction that does not exist in the word. (Rom 1:7, Phil 1:1)


The following scriptures express that the apostles were ordinary servants of God that were not to be given special recognition: (Acts 10:26, Luke 22:25-27, 2 Cor 12:6, Rev 19:10, 22:8-9)

You claimed that
The Saints in heaven are no different then when they were here. They are normal people. Many times throughout the bible the apostles made this clear.
The Saints in heaven are different to us on earth.

Firstly we on earth are imperfect. We are called to be holy as God is holy (1Pet 1:15-16), perfects as God is perfect (Mt 5:48). But we are not. The book of Hebrews tells us “Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12;14)

Those in heaven are perfect, they are holy.

In Hebrews 11 the writer describes the faith of many of those in the Old Testament, men and women, from Abel onwards. At the end he writes:

"And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect." They were dead but not yet perfect. But you have to be perfect to enter heaven (Rev 21:27). But these people of old were made perfect. Later Hebrews says “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb 12:22-23)

Secondly those in heaven do not sin as we do. Neither do they sleep as we do.

Thirdly they are in the very presence of God.

Whilst all who are part of the body of Christ are saints, the Church has discerned that some are particularly worthy as examples or role models for us. We call these Canonised Saints or just Saints with a capitalised ‘S’.

You say the apostles were not to be given special recognition, But they were. Jesus chose three as special - Peter James and John.
We recognise that some were given special inspiration by the Holy Spirit - the writers of scripture.
Paul was specially chosen by God for his purposes.

I am guilty of not reading the posts about Mary. But what immediately comes to mind is Jesus' statement that blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it. This in response to someone stating that Mary was to be blessed for giving birth to Him. This is not to demean Mary but rather to point to where true blessing originates:

"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." Luke 11:27-28

I addressed your last comment in posts #2295 and #2298. Asking for others to come into agreement with you and pray to Jesus for something is entirely different than PRAYING to someone and asking them to intercede for you to Jesus.

It is a different use of the word pray.

Please read post #165 in this thread which I think explains it well.- https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...nd-other-religions.192616/page-9#post-4273391

 

[Bede]

The following scripture makes it clear that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man:

The word mediator translated from the Greek means a go-between, intercessor, etc.:
NT:3316
<END GREEK> mesites (mes-ee'-tace); from NT:3319; a go-between, i.e. (simply) an internunciator, or (by implication) a reconciler (intercessor):

"For there is one God, and ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1 Tim 2:5

If you describe intercession as mediating then how do you explain this verse:
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, (1Tim 2:1)
Paul urges Timothy (& others) to intercede.
If you take Jesus is the one mediator/intercessor literally then the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to tell people to do wrong.

There are two ways out of that dilemma.
1. intercession is not what is meant by mediation in that quote (1 Tim 2:5), and remember it is only 4 verses after Paul tells people to intercede. Also Heb 8:6 suggests Jesus is the mediator of the Covenant rather than a mediator in everything.

2. We all share in the mediation of Jesus as the one mediator, just as we share in the priesthood of Christ.

Take your pick but either the Holy Spirit is wrong - or you are in using that verse.

 

[Bede]

PRAYING to human beings who have died requesting their help for intercession purposes is not biblical. As I stated in another post, Jesus is the only one we are to pray to.

And as I have just pointed out nowhere does scripture say Jesus is the only one we are to pray to. I could be wrong here but Does scripture even tell us to pray to Jesus?
After all Jesus tells us to pray to the Father (Mt 6:6-14)

 

[Bede]

My brother, imitated doesn't mean able to hear billions people pray to him. Jesus able to create heaven and earth, is paul
Imitated in love, not imitated in ability.

Here is an explanation by Al Kresta a Catholic apologist

"In response, we should note first that Mary and the other saints, of course, are not omniscient deities. Nevertheless, they do share something with God: They are outside of time. Being outside of time, it takes no time for them to hear these prayers.

Furthermore, there are a finite number of people on the earth, and thus a finite number of prayers are being sent skyward. Omniscience is not required — just an expanded range of human abilities. This is, of course, what God has promised: “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived what God has prepared for those who love him” (1 Cor 2:9).

Second, we should note that our oneness in Christ forms the medium of our communication with those in heaven. He is the vine; we are the branches in heaven and on earth. We are one body animated by Christ, who is the infinite, personal God in heaven and on earth. The eye communicates properly with the brain, and the hand communicates adequately with the itchy nose. This is part of the “communion of saints.”

Third, Scripture is clear that those in Heaven are somehow aware of the needs of those on the earth. The angels in heaven rejoice over the repentance of one sinner (Lk 15:7-10); the elders and angels in heaven offer up the prayers of the saints on earth (Rv 5:8; 8:3); those under the altar know that the time of their vindication has not yet come on the earth (Rv 6:10).

While I’m not sure how the divine prayer switchboard works, I do know that those in heaven are united with us in Christ and are not subject to the same limitations of space and time that we are. They have a way of networking we know not of."

 

[Bede]

Is the church build on Peter?

The word church can mean 3 thing

1. Building

Most Church building foundation is concrete, not Peter

2. Church mean Christian people

This Christian mean Christ follower, not Peter follower.

3. Teaching.

The foundation of Christian teaching is Christ teaching not human teaching.

My comment about Peter was a comment to Reformyourse. I'm not getting into a general discussion on that in this thread (at least until we finish this praying to Mary and the Saints in heaven). That's keeping me busy enough!

 

[Wansvic]

You claimed that
The Saints in heaven are no different then when they were here. They are normal people. Many times throughout the bible the apostles made this clear.
The Saints in heaven are different to us on earth.

Firstly we on earth are imperfect. We are called to be holy as God is holy (1Pet 1:15-16), perfects as God is perfect (Mt 5:48). But we are not. The book of Hebrews tells us “Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12;14)

Those in heaven are perfect, they are holy.

In Hebrews 11 the writer describes the faith of many of those in the Old Testament, men and women, from Abel onwards. At the end he writes:

"And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect." They were dead but not yet perfect. But you have to be perfect to enter heaven (Rev 21:27). But these people of old were made perfect. Later Hebrews says “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb 12:22-23)

Secondly those in heaven do not sin as we do. Neither do they sleep as we do.

Thirdly they are in the very presence of God.

Whilst all who are part of the body of Christ are saints, the Church has discerned that some are particularly worthy as examples or role models for us. We call these Canonised Saints or just Saints with a capitalised ‘S’.

You say the apostles were not to be given special recognition, But they were. Jesus chose three as special - Peter James and John.
We recognise that some were given special inspiration by the Holy Spirit - the writers of scripture.
Paul was specially chosen by God for his purposes.



It is a different use of the word pray.

Please read post #165 in this thread which I think explains it well.- https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...nd-other-religions.192616/page-9#post-4273391

The post you reference is no longer visible in this thread.

My reference to the apostles being no different than us was pertaining to their humanity. Just because they have entered Heaven does not give them the right to intercede for mankind; Jesus alone is the mediator between God and man. The apostles were chosen by Jesus for a specific purpose just as each of us is called for a specific purpose in fulfilling His will.

Where is the concept of Canonised Saints found in the word?

 

[Wansvic]

If you describe intercession as mediating then how do you explain this verse:
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, (1Tim 2:1)
Paul urges Timothy (& others) to intercede.
If you take Jesus is the one mediator/intercessor literally then the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to tell people to do wrong.

There are two ways out of that dilemma.
1. intercession is not what is meant by mediation in that quote (1 Tim 2:5), and remember it is only 4 verses after Paul tells people to intercede. Also Heb 8:6 suggests Jesus is the mediator of the Covenant rather than a mediator in everything.

2. We all share in the mediation of Jesus as the one mediator, just as we share in the priesthood of Christ.

Take your pick but either the Holy Spirit is wrong - or you are in using that verse.

Praying for someone's salvation/needs in the name of Jesus is different than PRAYING to an apostle in Heaven asking them to intercede. It is not biblical.

All prayer is to be done in Jesus' name because it is He that intercedes for us.