"Not by works" - false!
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There was no law in Abraham’s day. So to say works has nothing to do with the law
I find it amazing you are fighting not By works of the law only, when you claim you do not even teach works.
then again no I do not, it is your modus operendi. Your just here to argue
good day sir back to where you belong
I started responding because there was new people I will no longer feed you
I find it amazing you are fighting not By works of the law only, when you claim you do not even teach works.
then again no I do not, it is your modus operendi. Your just here to argue
good day sir back to where you belong
I started responding because there was new people I will no longer feed you
There is no biblical basis for this. Why are you taking the glory from God??
Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast."
And don't respond with Philippians 2:12-13 (except in its entirety): " So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence but even more in my absence, continue working out your salvation with awe and reverence, for the one bringing forth in you both the desire and the effort—for the sake of his good pleasure—is God.
Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast."
And don't respond with Philippians 2:12-13 (except in its entirety): " So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence but even more in my absence, continue working out your salvation with awe and reverence, for the one bringing forth in you both the desire and the effort—for the sake of his good pleasure—is God.
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Agreed. But not agreed to why Paul says this.
Paul says believing is not something you do because God has done it for you; God has caused you to believe for no one can do it by himself as NO ONE SEEKS GOD.
I've ask you several times how Paul can say this if you have to believe independently of GOD's influence ... your only answer to date is it is not a work because Paul say it is not a work. This is circular reasoning; you use the the premise in the conclusion. (Example: I believe because I believe)
Paul says believing is not something you do because God has done it for you; God has caused you to believe for no one can do it by himself as NO ONE SEEKS GOD.
I've ask you several times how Paul can say this if you have to believe independently of GOD's influence ... your only answer to date is it is not a work because Paul say it is not a work. This is circular reasoning; you use the the premise in the conclusion. (Example: I believe because I believe)
Are you really taking Paul's quoting from Psalm 53 out of context to prove a point?
Here is the entire psalm...
The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, and their ways are vile;
there is no one who does good.
God looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
Do all these evildoers know nothing?
They devour my people as though eating bread;
they never call on God.
But there they are, overwhelmed with dread,
where there was nothing to dread.
God scattered the bones of those who attacked you;
you put them to shame, for God despised them.
Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When God restores his people,
let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!
Don't create false doctrine!
Here is the entire psalm...
The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, and their ways are vile;
there is no one who does good.
God looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
Do all these evildoers know nothing?
They devour my people as though eating bread;
they never call on God.
But there they are, overwhelmed with dread,
where there was nothing to dread.
God scattered the bones of those who attacked you;
you put them to shame, for God despised them.
Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When God restores his people,
let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!
Don't create false doctrine!
You ignored my question. 
You state God loves everyone without exception.
When I ask "How can a holy GOD love wickedness" you have no answer.
You state God loves everyone without exception.
When I ask "How can a holy GOD love wickedness" you have no answer.
But, you are equating God's love for humanity with loving evil
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You ignored my question.
You state God loves everyone without exception.
When I ask "How can a holy GOD love wickedness" you have no answer.
Definition of God's love (one that ensures a holy God does not love the wicked son of Satan)
God’s love is an immutable emotion, a volition. Since God is holy He is separate from all that is unclean and evil. Thus, God’s love is an intellectual disposition of favor based on moral perfection (God is holy/light). Goes loves His son most as Christ is a perfect reflection of Himself.
As pertaining to the man, the absolute, innate holiness of God means that sinners have to be separated from Him unless a way can be found to constitute them holy. And that way has been provided in the merits of Jesus Christ to those IN CHRIST. God loves everyone else to the extent that the rain falls on the good and the wicked.
You state God loves everyone without exception.
When I ask "How can a holy GOD love wickedness" you have no answer.
Definition of God's love (one that ensures a holy God does not love the wicked son of Satan)
God’s love is an immutable emotion, a volition. Since God is holy He is separate from all that is unclean and evil. Thus, God’s love is an intellectual disposition of favor based on moral perfection (God is holy/light). Goes loves His son most as Christ is a perfect reflection of Himself.
As pertaining to the man, the absolute, innate holiness of God means that sinners have to be separated from Him unless a way can be found to constitute them holy. And that way has been provided in the merits of Jesus Christ to those IN CHRIST. God loves everyone else to the extent that the rain falls on the good and the wicked.
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
1 Timothy 2:3-4: "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
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You ignored my question.
You state God loves everyone without exception.
When I ask "How can a holy GOD love wickedness" you have no answer.
Definition of God's love (one that ensures a holy God does not love the wicked son of Satan)
God’s love is an immutable emotion, a volition. Since God is holy He is separate from all that is unclean and evil. Thus, God’s love is an intellectual disposition of favor based on moral perfection (God is holy/light). Goes loves His son most as Christ is a perfect reflection of Himself.
As pertaining to the man, the absolute, innate holiness of God means that sinners have to be separated from Him unless a way can be found to constitute them holy. And that way has been provided in the merits of Jesus Christ to those IN CHRIST. God loves everyone else to the extent that the rain falls on the good and the wicked.
You state God loves everyone without exception.
When I ask "How can a holy GOD love wickedness" you have no answer.
Definition of God's love (one that ensures a holy God does not love the wicked son of Satan)
God’s love is an immutable emotion, a volition. Since God is holy He is separate from all that is unclean and evil. Thus, God’s love is an intellectual disposition of favor based on moral perfection (God is holy/light). Goes loves His son most as Christ is a perfect reflection of Himself.
As pertaining to the man, the absolute, innate holiness of God means that sinners have to be separated from Him unless a way can be found to constitute them holy. And that way has been provided in the merits of Jesus Christ to those IN CHRIST. God loves everyone else to the extent that the rain falls on the good and the wicked.
His love is holy, His justice is Holy, His anger is holy, His wisdom is holy. Everything about God is Holy and perfect.
God hates it when people do things or function independently from him. God will judge the serial killers, the murderers, the rapists,liers, gossipers,idolaters etc. on the other hand, God reaches out to sinners in compassion, grace, love and mercy(John3:16)
Let me be honest with you, I hate the evil that people do and I know they will go to hell if they don't recieve and respond in Faith as God offers to save them. The patience of God means salvation, so I also pray that they be saved and enjoy eternal fellowship with the Father.
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I have no idea what you are talking about.
God Hates the Sin but Love the Sinner ???? ... an abominable lie
If it be true that God loves every member of the human family then why did our Lord tell His disciples, “He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father… 23 If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him” (John 14:21,23)? Why say “he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father” if the Father loves everybody? The same limitation is found in Proverbs 8:17 “I love them that love Me.” Again; we read, Psalm 5:5 “Thou hatest all workers of iniquity”—not merely the works of iniquity. Here, then, is a flat repudiation of present teaching that, God hates sin but loves the sinner; Scripture says, Psalm 7:11 “God is angry with the wicked every day.” (KJV) John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (KJV) —not “shall abide,” but even now— ”abideth on him” (Psalm 5:5; Psalm 7:11; John 3:36b). Can God “love” the one on whom His “wrath” abides? Again; is it not evident that the words “The love of God which is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:39) mark a limitation, both in the sphere and objects of His love? Again; is it not plain from the words “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (Romans 9:13) that God does not love everybody? Again; it is written, “For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth” (Hebrews 12:6). Does not this verse teach that God’s love is restricted to the members of His own family? If He loves all men without exception, then the distinction and limitation here mentioned is quite meaningless. Further illustrations:
God’s holiness requires that He hate sin (Psalm 5:5b; Psalm 73:20b; Proverbs 6:16-19; Zechariah 8:17).
When God loves a man, it is impossible for that man to be separated from Him (Romans 8:38 - 39). Many will be separated from God in the last day by the words, “Depart from me” (Matthew 7:23). Since the wicked in hell will be separated from God, it is sure that He never loved them at all.
God cannot and does not love sin or sinners, but He does love the righteous (Psalm 11:7; Hebrews 1:9).
Jesus sits at God’s right hand interceding for all the Father loves (Romans 8:34 -35; Hebrews 7:22-25). Jesus does not plead for the wicked; He endures them in longsuffering (1 Peter 3:20; Romans 9:22).
But does not God love the whole world; the whole issue with this popular corruption of the verse is the definition of the word “world.” But what of John 12:19; John 14:17; John 15:19; John 16:20; John 17:14, all of which cast doubt on the meaning of the word WORLD
Amos 3:2 “I have known [chosen, cared for, and loved] only you of all the families of the earth;
Finally, ‘Is it conceivable that God will love the damned in the Lake of Fire?’ Yet, if He loves them now He will do so then, seeing that His love knows no change—He is “without variableness or shadow of turning”!"
God Hates the Sin but Love the Sinner ???? ... an abominable lie
If it be true that God loves every member of the human family then why did our Lord tell His disciples, “He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father… 23 If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him” (John 14:21,23)? Why say “he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father” if the Father loves everybody? The same limitation is found in Proverbs 8:17 “I love them that love Me.” Again; we read, Psalm 5:5 “Thou hatest all workers of iniquity”—not merely the works of iniquity. Here, then, is a flat repudiation of present teaching that, God hates sin but loves the sinner; Scripture says, Psalm 7:11 “God is angry with the wicked every day.” (KJV) John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (KJV) —not “shall abide,” but even now— ”abideth on him” (Psalm 5:5; Psalm 7:11; John 3:36b). Can God “love” the one on whom His “wrath” abides? Again; is it not evident that the words “The love of God which is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:39) mark a limitation, both in the sphere and objects of His love? Again; is it not plain from the words “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (Romans 9:13) that God does not love everybody? Again; it is written, “For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth” (Hebrews 12:6). Does not this verse teach that God’s love is restricted to the members of His own family? If He loves all men without exception, then the distinction and limitation here mentioned is quite meaningless. Further illustrations:
God’s holiness requires that He hate sin (Psalm 5:5b; Psalm 73:20b; Proverbs 6:16-19; Zechariah 8:17).
- God loves His elect because legally they are not sinners. Thus, God’s wrath does not apply to believers for they are legally without sin (see Justification) and sin is the reason for God’s wrath. John 14:31 “I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father”
- Colossians 3:14b … wrap yourselves in [unselfish] love, which is the perfect bond of unity [for everything is bound together in agreement when each one seeks the best for others].
When God loves a man, it is impossible for that man to be separated from Him (Romans 8:38 - 39). Many will be separated from God in the last day by the words, “Depart from me” (Matthew 7:23). Since the wicked in hell will be separated from God, it is sure that He never loved them at all.
God cannot and does not love sin or sinners, but He does love the righteous (Psalm 11:7; Hebrews 1:9).
- 1 Corinthians 13:6 Love "rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth in the truth.
- Romans 8:34 Who is the one who condemns us? Christ Jesus is the One who died [to pay our penalty], and more than that, who was raised [from the dead], and who is at the right hand of God interceding [with the Father] for us. [Most assuredly the intercession of Christ must be answered in the affirmative. Thus, Christ intercedes for the elect only; otherwise, all would be saved.]
- “The love of God which is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:39) marks a limitation, both in the sphere and objects of His love.
- Romans 13:10 “Love worketh no ill to his neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”
- The chronological sequence is that God loves us prior to us loving Him and His love is the reason for our love of Him. 1 John 4:19 “We love him, because He first loved us”.
Jesus sits at God’s right hand interceding for all the Father loves (Romans 8:34 -35; Hebrews 7:22-25). Jesus does not plead for the wicked; He endures them in longsuffering (1 Peter 3:20; Romans 9:22).
But does not God love the whole world; the whole issue with this popular corruption of the verse is the definition of the word “world.” But what of John 12:19; John 14:17; John 15:19; John 16:20; John 17:14, all of which cast doubt on the meaning of the word WORLD
Amos 3:2 “I have known [chosen, cared for, and loved] only you of all the families of the earth;
Finally, ‘Is it conceivable that God will love the damned in the Lake of Fire?’ Yet, if He loves them now He will do so then, seeing that His love knows no change—He is “without variableness or shadow of turning”!"
Okay, excellent. This is a good example of what I was talking about before.
You are sure there is only one way possible to understand that passage (John 10:28-29).
That makes you sure that a believer can never be out of the hand of God because that would make the verse false.
But when you consider the whole counsel of God we know that passage isn't talking about when a believer no longer is in the hand of God because of unbelief. For example:
"6and Christ, as a Son over his house, whose house are we, if the boldness and the rejoicing of the hope unto the end we hold fast." - Hebrews 3:6
So, obviously, being snatched from the hand of God is referring to being snatched away against your will by an outside force, not being removed from the hand of God because of your own unbelief. We know that for the simple reason that other scripture talk about not being in the Son and the Father anymore because of unbelief.
You are sure there is only one way possible to understand that passage (John 10:28-29).
That makes you sure that a believer can never be out of the hand of God because that would make the verse false.
But when you consider the whole counsel of God we know that passage isn't talking about when a believer no longer is in the hand of God because of unbelief. For example:
"6and Christ, as a Son over his house, whose house are we, if the boldness and the rejoicing of the hope unto the end we hold fast." - Hebrews 3:6
So, obviously, being snatched from the hand of God is referring to being snatched away against your will by an outside force, not being removed from the hand of God because of your own unbelief. We know that for the simple reason that other scripture talk about not being in the Son and the Father anymore because of unbelief.
You are one the of more articulate posters ... but I have no idea how you have related Hebrews 3:6 to John 10:29.
John 10:29 Commentary
Jesus strengthened this promise of security. He reminded His hearers that, because what He did was simply to execute the Father's will—it was the "Father," as well as Himself, who would keep His sheep secure (cf. 17:12).
"The 'hand of Christ' (v. 28) is beneath us, and the 'hand' of the Father is above us. Thus are we secured between the clasped hands of Omnipotence!"[717]
"The greatness of the Father, not of the flock, is the ground of [basis for] the safety of the flock."[718]
"The impossibility of true believers being lost, in the midst of all the temptations which they may encounter, does not consist in their fidelity and decision, but is founded upon the power of God."[719]
No one can steal from God. No one has superior strength or wisdom to overpower or outwit Him (cf. Col. 3:3). No one will snatch them from God (v. 28), and no one can do so either.
John 10:29 Commentary
Jesus strengthened this promise of security. He reminded His hearers that, because what He did was simply to execute the Father's will—it was the "Father," as well as Himself, who would keep His sheep secure (cf. 17:12).
"The 'hand of Christ' (v. 28) is beneath us, and the 'hand' of the Father is above us. Thus are we secured between the clasped hands of Omnipotence!"[717]
"The greatness of the Father, not of the flock, is the ground of [basis for] the safety of the flock."[718]
"The impossibility of true believers being lost, in the midst of all the temptations which they may encounter, does not consist in their fidelity and decision, but is founded upon the power of God."[719]
No one can steal from God. No one has superior strength or wisdom to overpower or outwit Him (cf. Col. 3:3). No one will snatch them from God (v. 28), and no one can do so either.
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Paul did not say that.
You interpreted what he said as that.
That we are in agreement on.
I have never said a person believes independently of God's influence.
We can't believe the gospel without God's Spirit showing us in our heart that it really is true, and God giving us loads of encouragement to place our trust in the gospel the Spirit has shown us to true.
I said believing in Christ is not a work of the law.
That's what Paul's treatise about faith vs. works is all about.
It's not about doing something to be justified vs. not doing anything whatsoever to be justified.
As I pointed out to @eternally-gratefull , the argument is works of the law can't justify. That's why faith in Christ is not included in the works that can not justify but instead stands diametrically opposed to keeping the law for justification. But Calvinism has changed that to 'nothing whatsoever you do justifies, including your believing, or else that's a works gospel'. And so it says believing is not something you do but something God gave you. It's a ridiculous argument based on an erroneous understanding of the difference between faith and works.
No, it's 'I believe because God gave me the faith to believe'. I'm confident you have used the phrase 'I have the faith to believe' many, many times. So, even you make the distinction between 'faith' and 'believing' by saying that.
But if you claim there is no difference between faith and the believing/trusting that faith causes, and that they are actually one and the same thing, you will actually be the one making the circular statement, 'I have the believing to believe'.
You interpreted what he said as that.
That we are in agreement on.
I have never said a person believes independently of God's influence.
We can't believe the gospel without God's Spirit showing us in our heart that it really is true, and God giving us loads of encouragement to place our trust in the gospel the Spirit has shown us to true.
I said believing in Christ is not a work of the law.
That's what Paul's treatise about faith vs. works is all about.
It's not about doing something to be justified vs. not doing anything whatsoever to be justified.
As I pointed out to @eternally-gratefull , the argument is works of the law can't justify. That's why faith in Christ is not included in the works that can not justify but instead stands diametrically opposed to keeping the law for justification. But Calvinism has changed that to 'nothing whatsoever you do justifies, including your believing, or else that's a works gospel'. And so it says believing is not something you do but something God gave you. It's a ridiculous argument based on an erroneous understanding of the difference between faith and works.
No, it's 'I believe because God gave me the faith to believe'. I'm confident you have used the phrase 'I have the faith to believe' many, many times. So, even you make the distinction between 'faith' and 'believing' by saying that.
But if you claim there is no difference between faith and the believing/trusting that faith causes, and that they are actually one and the same thing, you will actually be the one making the circular statement, 'I have the believing to believe'.