it amazes me how confident some are to assign hatred and wrath to Jesus and God, which ignores Jesus's compassion to lost people. A person can select pieces of scripture to prove anything is true they want!
"God loves everyone" - false
- Thread starter DBurrage
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R
Reformyourself
Guest
R
Reformyourself
Guest
John 14:6
Jesus said to him; I Am The Way, The Truth and The Life, no-one comes to The Father, ‘except’ by Me.
Jesus said to him; I Am The Way, The Truth and The Life, no-one comes to The Father, ‘except’ by Me.
E
EleventhHour
Guest
??So, what are the effects of the two assertions?
1) God does not love everyone.
2) God does love everyone.
To me it means I too must choose one of these in my dealings with others, everyday, for my entire existence and I must be consistant.
To deal in speculation has ramifications.
Its easy to find verses to fit either position, choose wisely.
1) God does not love everyone.
2) God does love everyone.
To me it means I too must choose one of these in my dealings with others, everyday, for my entire existence and I must be consistant.
To deal in speculation has ramifications.
Its easy to find verses to fit either position, choose wisely.
E
EleventhHour
Guest
A little busy today.. it will require some singular focus on my part ... hopefully later today.
Acts 10:34-35 (NIV)
34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
When God hates, He essentially is grieved over the actions of those who do wrong.
But God out of love still holds the promise of salvation for the one who submits to God.
We are judged on our actions because of our inaction to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. They are not hated just because the individual exists. The soul is still created in God's image. God doesn't hate the image but only the sin. The sin is what separates us.
34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
When God hates, He essentially is grieved over the actions of those who do wrong.
But God out of love still holds the promise of salvation for the one who submits to God.
We are judged on our actions because of our inaction to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. They are not hated just because the individual exists. The soul is still created in God's image. God doesn't hate the image but only the sin. The sin is what separates us.
@EleventhHour Oh, had a duplicate question on 2 and 5 .... Question 5 should be: Does God loves everyone the same amount (or approximately the same amount (no need to split hairs)? If a different amount of love for different persons, what determines the difference?
God is no respecter of persons, and the Bible teaches us that we should not show partiality either.
God does not love what Satan has become. But Angela you can't tell me that God did not love Lucifer when he was in obedience to God. You can't show me a verse that says God didn't love him at one point in his life can you? I will never believe that God will get any kind of pleasure destroying any of His creation I think it will be a very hard time for Him because God is love.
You seem to forget the other attributes of God. Like justice and wrath, and that he hates sin.
"The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence." Psalm 11:5
"The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers." Psalm 5:5
And here is what Jesus thinks of Satan:
"You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44
That doesn't sound much like God loves Satan. Jesus is clear he was a murderer from the beginning, and I think we can trust his words! I think you need to read the Bible, without overlying false doctrine into it. God hates sin, the wicked and the devil. That is what the Bible says! Never forget! God is not one sided, he can do what he wants, because he is sovereign. Every page of the Bible says that, not just a few verses in 1 John 4! Yes, God is love, but he is so much more!
R
Reformyourself
Guest
Psalm 5:5
The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.
The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.
Indirectly I can show a verse (or verses) if you want.
Malachi 3:6a For I the Lord do not change;
Psalm 102:27 But you remain the same, and your years will never end
Job 23:13 But He is unchangeable, and who can turn Him?
Therefore, God is immutable. Therefore, either God continues to LOVE SATAN and always has ... or God does NOT LOVE SATAN and always has. Take your choice.
Aside: If you believe God is mutable, then it follows tha God may not always love you.
Aside: God is immutable as He is eternal ...He has no succession of moments. To change is to become better of poorer than He was. If God can change then His veracity is in question.
As to the question at hand ... God Loves Everyone. If this be true then a majority of people God loves are in hell. A majority of people God loves are to be separated from His love for eternity.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Question 0: Define LOVE in the context of God's LOVES everyone.Note: I did my best to answer all questions over the last two days to address points raised by those supporting the proposition that GOD LOVES EVERYONE. No one would answer my questions. That does make me correct, but one wonders why. @EleventhHour said she would answer my questions, but has not done so to date.
Will no one take up the cause of GOD LOVES EVERYONE in its defense?
@eternally-gratefull @Sackcloth-N-Ashes
.
True love is unconditional. According to Jesus himself. No greater love has anyone that he die for the one he loved.
Who did Jesus die for? John called him the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. And later he said that Christ made propitiation for sin. Not only for us, but the WHOLE WORLD..
God loves the world. Sadly the whole world does not love God
Question 1:
Your definition of LOVE ... Take pleasure in is a definition of God's Love: (note: this was @EleventhHour definition and therefore question for her)
Does God "take pleasure in" the wicked as much as he does those IN CHRIST ????
If your answer is NO. Would that not be good reason to say "God does not love everyone the same amount"?
I do not agree with this definition so no response.
Question 2:
Colossians 3:14 Beyond all these things put on and wrap yourselves in [unselfish] love, which is the perfect bond of unity [for everything is bound together in agreement when each one seeks the best
Here is a biblical definition of love (perfect bond of unity). I understand how those "in christ" have a perfect bond of unity. How do you propose unbelievers (son of Satan) have a perfect bond of unity with God which is a definition of love?
reread what it says, PUT ON love, which is the bond.
If you do not put on love by receiving Gods love (we love because God loved us) then the bond of perfection (unity is a poor translation) is not applied to you
Question 3:
How can a Holy God love that which is unholy? (i.e. son of Satan) Does He deny His own essence? Can He love that which He is repulsed by?
This question is answered in the fact God died while we were still his enemy (yet sinners) If God can not love what is not holy. Then he would never have showed his love in dyeing for the lost (unholy)
Question 4:
Faith cometh by hearing so those that do not hear the gospel have no chance of salvation. Assuming you agree with that statement …
Why does God not ensure the gospel (faith cometh by hearing) is sent to those He loves?
The HS convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgement, Roman 1 also states that the world not only knows who he is and what he is, it (they) knows not only what they7 do is sin but they are rightly judged. Take this with the HS conviction and we see no one has an excuse.. If they do not listen to the HS then, they will never hear the word.. But it does not mean they have no heard what they need to hear
Question 5:
Colossians 3:14 Beyond all these things put on and wrap yourselves in [unselfish] love, which is the perfect bond of unity [for everything is bound together in agreement when each one seeks the best
Here is a biblical definition of love (perfect bond of unity). I understand how those "in Christ" have a perfect bond of unity. How do you propose unbelievers (son of Satan) have a perfect bond of unity with God which is a BIBLICAL definition of love?
Repeat of question 3, already answered
Question 6:
What is your explanation for so many verses telling us God hates, loathes, is repulsed by ... those you say He loves? Perhaps you are one of those that says God loves the sinners but not the sin. If so, why doesn't He send the sin to hell and save whatever is left over?
save what is left over?
God is repulsed by sin. Thus people who commit sin repulse god.
But the fact he died for them PROVES he loved them
Question 7:
Given:
John 14:21 “He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father… 23 If a man loves Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him”
1 John 4:19 We love, because He first loved us.
Since:
1) God only loves the obedient only - verse 21 says “[they] shall be loved by the father” it indicates Christians (the elect) only
2) God only loves those that love Him - verse 21
3) Only those who obey God love God - verse 23 and they love because God loved them first (ver. 1 John 4:19)
We can conclude that some undefined measurement of obedience (love) must be present in all believers to be loved by God who only loves Christians.
…………. What is wrong with the logic of question 7
What is the measurement?
If there must be a measurement, then you must define it. Otherwise we could never know we have eternal life. And again, John said he wrote things so we can KNOW we have it.
Question 8:
Can you give examples of biblical person's name(s) we know went to hell (someone nit-picked and said people not in hell yet .. you get what I mean) that God said He loved. Admittedly, no examples do not prove my point but is circumstantial evidence, but is strong evidence for yours.
Do not understand question. You will need more than this. A parent loves a child. But if the child acts up. The parent still punishes the child.
Question 9:
Give examples of biblical person's name(s) we know went to heaven that God said He hated or loathed or was repulsed by. Admittedly, no examples do not prove my point but is circumstantial evidence, but is strong evidence for yours.
Again, Do not see where this relates
Question 10:
Assuming God loves everyone, one assume God would not favor any group of people and therefore each group would be represented in heaven by relatively proportional numbers. Assuming you agree with this statement … Why do we see such disproportionality. Consider: 1 Corinthians 1:26Brothers, consider the time of your calling: Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were powerful; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
Straight and narrow gate to god, and few enter in
Wide gate to destruction. MANY enter in.
Your question again makes no sense
I believe God loves everyone including Satan. He Hates sin and the result of it which causes those He loves to be lost from their choices and continued sin. God can't be in the presence of darkness/evil/sin. He loves us but does not love the wrong sinful choices we make. Otherwise why would He have sent Jesus to die for us for our sins if He didn't love us?
This particular thread is a good example of just how much people don't understand God's capability to love unconditionally. We would all say that the woman caught in adultery should have been put to death - stoned as that was the punishment at that time and she was brought to him so that the religious leaders could trap Jesus.
Instead Jesus began writing in the sand and one by one the leaders left until it was just Jesus and the woman. He asked her woman where are your accusers? Then He told her neither do I accuse you go and sin no more. God's love shines through here as by law she should have been stoned and put to death but Jesus saved her out of love and it changed her life.
Jesus always worked to save sinners, but the religious leaders had harder hearts than the sinners and couldn't understand God's love and made rules and regulations so hard that no one could follow them. Makes me wonder if self righteousness and pride aren't close cousins....
I look at God like my Father and I know He has nothing but best that He wants for my life and He is hurt and disappointed when I make a wrong choice and sin but from my life I can testify that He has over and over again continued to call me back to Him and has helped me along the way so many times I can't count and as long as any of us have breath He will never give up trying to get us to come to Him and repent change our way of sin and follow Him.. Some like Satan will never make the change and they are lost by their choice but sin has overtaken their heart and they don't want to change I still say that God Hates the sin but He loves us and Jesus sacrifice is the proof.
Instead Jesus began writing in the sand and one by one the leaders left until it was just Jesus and the woman. He asked her woman where are your accusers? Then He told her neither do I accuse you go and sin no more. God's love shines through here as by law she should have been stoned and put to death but Jesus saved her out of love and it changed her life.
Jesus always worked to save sinners, but the religious leaders had harder hearts than the sinners and couldn't understand God's love and made rules and regulations so hard that no one could follow them. Makes me wonder if self righteousness and pride aren't close cousins....
I look at God like my Father and I know He has nothing but best that He wants for my life and He is hurt and disappointed when I make a wrong choice and sin but from my life I can testify that He has over and over again continued to call me back to Him and has helped me along the way so many times I can't count and as long as any of us have breath He will never give up trying to get us to come to Him and repent change our way of sin and follow Him.. Some like Satan will never make the change and they are lost by their choice but sin has overtaken their heart and they don't want to change I still say that God Hates the sin but He loves us and Jesus sacrifice is the proof.
If anyone of these wicked or Satan had a change of heart and repented would not God take them back? Of the wicked I would say yes, that God would take them back. But Satan already had a chance to change and didn't take it and sealed his fate when he killed Jesus so no I don't believe Satan would at this point be forgiven as he went too far.
Seeing how God has given humans a chance to choose Him and be saved I am sure God also gave Lucifer a chance to change also but he didn't take it and became Satan and showed the universe how evil he was by killing Jesus through the Jewish people. God is a God of love who gives chances to change but God is also a God of Justice and there will come a day when the lake of fire burns hot and destroys the wicked, Satan and the last enemy to be destroyed is death. I realize God will put an end to the evil and wickedness and purify the earth and I long for the day when Satan is not whispering in my ear to tempt me to do something against what God would have me to do which is to obey Him. Where we will all be in harmony again and living with God as one with no more sin....Yes, come Lord Jesus.
@eternally-gratefull
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions. I enjoyed our previous repartee. Below are my responses.
Question 0: Define LOVE in the context of God's LOVES everyone.
True love is unconditional. According to Jesus himself. No greater love has anyone that he die for the one he loved.
Who did Jesus die for? John called him the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. And later he said that Christ made propitiation for sin. Not only for us, but the WHOLE WORLD..
God loves the world. Sadly the whole world does not love God
My Response: My definition of love is: A volition to favor according to the loveliness of the object where the loveliness of the object is determined by its closeness to moral perfection (In Christ being morally perfect).
I find your definition of love to be lacking substance (IMO) and I therefore I’m not exactly sure how you are relating to the question at hand: ”Does God Love Everyone”. I take your definition to be Love = unconditional (never changing) with which I am in agreement as God in immutable. But God’s holiness, goodness, power, etc. etc. also fits your definition IMO. Anyways, I would wish more clarity.
Tom Constable defines "Love" (agape) means doing what is best for another person … Is that your definition? I agree with this definition also though it does not identify the reason for God’s love.
Question 1:
Your definition of LOVE ... Take pleasure in is a definition of God's Love: (note: this was @EleventhHour definition and therefore question for her)
Does God "take pleasure in" the wicked as much as he does those IN CHRIST ????
If your answer is NO. Would that not be good reason to say "God does not love everyone the same amount"?
I do not agree with this definition so no response.
My Response: Agreed, that was Eleventhhours definition and you are not to be assigned to it.
Question 2:
Colossians 3:14 Beyond all these things put on and wrap yourselves in [unselfish] love, which is the perfect bond of unity [for everything is bound together in agreement when each one seeks the best
Here is a biblical definition of love (perfect bond of unity). I understand how those "in christ" have a perfect bond of unity. How do you propose unbelievers (son of Satan) have a perfect bond of unity with God which is a definition of love?
reread what it says, PUT ON love, which is the bond.
If you do not put on love by receiving Gods love (we love because God loved us) then the bond of perfection (unity is a poor translation) is not applied to you
My Response: Well, I exegete the verse differently .. so we are at an impasse on that question. You say “unity is a poor translation”; yet, several translations use it. Some used your meaning also … so who is to say.
Question 3:
How can a Holy God love that which is unholy? (i.e. son of Satan) Does He deny His own essence? Can He love that which He is repulsed by?
This question is answered in the fact God died while we were still his enemy (yet sinners) If God can not love what is not holy. Then he would never have showed his love in dyeing for the lost (unholy)
My Response: I see your point. I would respond that IMO God died exclusively for only those that would be made holy by God. Ephesians 1:4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love … Thus, God’s glory is not soured by the loving (favoring to the point of dying for) of something that is repugnant (sinless) to Him.
Question 4:
Faith cometh by hearing so those that do not hear the gospel have no chance of salvation. Assuming you agree with that statement …
Why does God not ensure the gospel (faith cometh by hearing) is sent to those He loves?
The HS convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgement, Roman 1 also states that the world not only knows who he is and what he is, it (they) knows not only what they7 do is sin but they are rightly judged. Take this with the HS conviction and we see no one has an excuse.. If they do not listen to the HS then, they will never hear the word.. But it does not mean they have no heard what they need to hear
My Response: We are agreed IMO that those that have not heard the gospel are accountable and without excuse. My point though is: that 100% of those that did not hear the gospel go to hell, whereas those that hear the gospel at least have a improved chance to be saved. Thus, why does God not give them a BETTER chance to be saved like those that hear the gospel? Does God not love everyone the same amount and ergo, give everyone an equal chance of salvation?
Question 5:
Colossians 3:14 Beyond all these things put on and wrap yourselves in [unselfish] love, which is the perfect bond of unity [for everything is bound together in agreement when each one seeks the best
Here is a biblical definition of love (perfect bond of unity). I understand how those "in Christ" have a perfect bond of unity. How do you propose unbelievers (son of Satan) have a perfect bond of unity with God which is a BIBLICAL definition of love?
Repeat of question 3, already answered
My Response: Agreed, my bad editing. Question should have been: Does God loves everyone the same amount (or approximately the same amount (no need to split hairs)? If a different amount of love for different persons, what determines the difference?
Question 6:
What is your explanation for so many verses telling us God hates, loathes, is repulsed by ... those you say He loves? Perhaps you are one of those that says God loves the sinners but not the sin. If so, why doesn't He send the sin to hell and save whatever is left over?
save what is left over?
God is repulsed by sin. Thus people who commit sin repulse god.
But the fact he died for them PROVES he loved them
My Response: So, you believe God loves those that he is repulsed by? If so, my definition of love has a caveat that yours does not. I believe God love’s those in accordance to the loveliness of the person. Those in Christ being perfectly lovely/moral.
Your definition could be modified to state IMO that God’s love is not affected by the repulsiveness of the object of his love. (Caveat: I am putting words in your mouth, so please clarify any misconstruction on my part).
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions. I enjoyed our previous repartee. Below are my responses.
Question 0: Define LOVE in the context of God's LOVES everyone.
True love is unconditional. According to Jesus himself. No greater love has anyone that he die for the one he loved.
Who did Jesus die for? John called him the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. And later he said that Christ made propitiation for sin. Not only for us, but the WHOLE WORLD..
God loves the world. Sadly the whole world does not love God
My Response: My definition of love is: A volition to favor according to the loveliness of the object where the loveliness of the object is determined by its closeness to moral perfection (In Christ being morally perfect).
I find your definition of love to be lacking substance (IMO) and I therefore I’m not exactly sure how you are relating to the question at hand: ”Does God Love Everyone”. I take your definition to be Love = unconditional (never changing) with which I am in agreement as God in immutable. But God’s holiness, goodness, power, etc. etc. also fits your definition IMO. Anyways, I would wish more clarity.
Tom Constable defines "Love" (agape) means doing what is best for another person … Is that your definition? I agree with this definition also though it does not identify the reason for God’s love.
Question 1:
Your definition of LOVE ... Take pleasure in is a definition of God's Love: (note: this was @EleventhHour definition and therefore question for her)
Does God "take pleasure in" the wicked as much as he does those IN CHRIST ????
If your answer is NO. Would that not be good reason to say "God does not love everyone the same amount"?
I do not agree with this definition so no response.
My Response: Agreed, that was Eleventhhours definition and you are not to be assigned to it.
Question 2:
Colossians 3:14 Beyond all these things put on and wrap yourselves in [unselfish] love, which is the perfect bond of unity [for everything is bound together in agreement when each one seeks the best
Here is a biblical definition of love (perfect bond of unity). I understand how those "in christ" have a perfect bond of unity. How do you propose unbelievers (son of Satan) have a perfect bond of unity with God which is a definition of love?
reread what it says, PUT ON love, which is the bond.
If you do not put on love by receiving Gods love (we love because God loved us) then the bond of perfection (unity is a poor translation) is not applied to you
My Response: Well, I exegete the verse differently .. so we are at an impasse on that question. You say “unity is a poor translation”; yet, several translations use it. Some used your meaning also … so who is to say.
Question 3:
How can a Holy God love that which is unholy? (i.e. son of Satan) Does He deny His own essence? Can He love that which He is repulsed by?
This question is answered in the fact God died while we were still his enemy (yet sinners) If God can not love what is not holy. Then he would never have showed his love in dyeing for the lost (unholy)
My Response: I see your point. I would respond that IMO God died exclusively for only those that would be made holy by God. Ephesians 1:4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love … Thus, God’s glory is not soured by the loving (favoring to the point of dying for) of something that is repugnant (sinless) to Him.
Question 4:
Faith cometh by hearing so those that do not hear the gospel have no chance of salvation. Assuming you agree with that statement …
Why does God not ensure the gospel (faith cometh by hearing) is sent to those He loves?
The HS convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgement, Roman 1 also states that the world not only knows who he is and what he is, it (they) knows not only what they7 do is sin but they are rightly judged. Take this with the HS conviction and we see no one has an excuse.. If they do not listen to the HS then, they will never hear the word.. But it does not mean they have no heard what they need to hear
My Response: We are agreed IMO that those that have not heard the gospel are accountable and without excuse. My point though is: that 100% of those that did not hear the gospel go to hell, whereas those that hear the gospel at least have a improved chance to be saved. Thus, why does God not give them a BETTER chance to be saved like those that hear the gospel? Does God not love everyone the same amount and ergo, give everyone an equal chance of salvation?
Question 5:
Colossians 3:14 Beyond all these things put on and wrap yourselves in [unselfish] love, which is the perfect bond of unity [for everything is bound together in agreement when each one seeks the best
Here is a biblical definition of love (perfect bond of unity). I understand how those "in Christ" have a perfect bond of unity. How do you propose unbelievers (son of Satan) have a perfect bond of unity with God which is a BIBLICAL definition of love?
Repeat of question 3, already answered
My Response: Agreed, my bad editing. Question should have been: Does God loves everyone the same amount (or approximately the same amount (no need to split hairs)? If a different amount of love for different persons, what determines the difference?
Question 6:
What is your explanation for so many verses telling us God hates, loathes, is repulsed by ... those you say He loves? Perhaps you are one of those that says God loves the sinners but not the sin. If so, why doesn't He send the sin to hell and save whatever is left over?
save what is left over?
God is repulsed by sin. Thus people who commit sin repulse god.
But the fact he died for them PROVES he loved them
My Response: So, you believe God loves those that he is repulsed by? If so, my definition of love has a caveat that yours does not. I believe God love’s those in accordance to the loveliness of the person. Those in Christ being perfectly lovely/moral.
Your definition could be modified to state IMO that God’s love is not affected by the repulsiveness of the object of his love. (Caveat: I am putting words in your mouth, so please clarify any misconstruction on my part).