"God loves everyone" - false

EleventhHour · May 30, 2020

I sort of thought you believed as I did .. that God does NOT love everyone ... (unless you define LOVE as minimally as "The sun shines and the rain falls of the good and wicked". Just wanted to FYI you on my post saying NO ONE answered my questions. Eleventh is working on it to her credit.

Need to decide where to start

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · May 30, 2020

Fastfredy0 said:

I believe the non-elect receive common grace from Him. But in regards to love, their agape, Philia, storge, and Eros, and all have varying meanings from each other.

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · May 30, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

But you’re pitting scripture against scripture. If you read Romans 9, the vessels of mercy were take from the same lump the vessels of wrath were in. Even when we look at Nineveh, they repented at the proclamation of Jonah‘s words. I don’t deny that a person(or nation) repents, God still does them harm. But even repentance itself is a gift from God.

Fastfredy0 · May 30, 2020

EleventhHour said:

You could save time and come "to the dark side" and agreed with us .... (giggles ... j/k)

Fastfredy0 · May 30, 2020

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

Yeah, if one proves repentance and faith come from God and not ourselves, the question "Does God Love Everyone" should go away. I didn't want to go down that road ... enough on the plate. LOL

Magenta · May 30, 2020

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

The calvinist position is that the non-elect cannot be saved... according to the god of your doctrine, God does not elect all, and none can respond if they are not drawn, because again according to you though you pretend otherwise and lie about it, God created them specifically for destruction. You have claimed it multiple times. Since you fail to understand the plain things I wrote and also deliberately misrepresent what I said, why would anyone think you could comprehend and accept the deeper meanings?

Magenta · May 30, 2020

Fastfredy0 said:

Clearly they are given but how does/would that prove that God does not love everyone? Romans 1 makes clear people suppress the truth, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. They are simply not willing to accept His authority due to the same problem (pride of life) that Adam and Eve suffered in the Garden of Eden in choosing to disobey God. Still He sought them out and clothed them and made provision for all after them to be reconciled to Him in spite of our sinful, rebellious nature - which is an act of love on God's part, not hate.

FrankChatter · May 30, 2020

breno785au said:

I read not wishing as not wishing:

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

The Lord wants all to come to repentance.

Runningman · May 30, 2020

Matthew 5:43-48

"43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Jesus explains that Christians should love everyone because God loves everyone. Jesus says that this is how to be perfect.

FrankChatter · May 30, 2020

1 John 2:2 and he himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world.

eternally-gratefull · May 30, 2020

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

I am only putting scripture against scripture if I take your interpretation of romans 9. There is no contention with
My View of romans 9 They are not apposed

eternally-gratefull · May 30, 2020

Fastfredy0 said:

Only if we take the fatalistic view if repentance and faith is this true

JesusLives · May 30, 2020

While we all are living and breathing. God wills for us all to give our hearts to Him and repent. He loves everyone He has created. I don't forget that there will come a time that God's wrath will be released and there will be an end of sin. There will be a lake of fire and sin, people who refused to accept Christ's gift of salvation, the Devil and all the evil angels will be thrown into this fire and it will eternally remove them from God's presence. That will be a sad day God will not be joyful in destroying part of His creation. The fire will cleanse and purify the earth and we are told that death will also be thrown in.

God will create a new heaven and a new earth as John tells us in Revelation:

Revelation 21 New International Version (NIV)
A New Heaven and a New Earth
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

God is all.... mercy, justice, punisher, the one who will rid the world of sin, all evil and death. But first and foremost He is a God of Love and in that love He executes all His attributes when and where they are needed. I have faith in Him that He does what needs to be done when it needs to be done.

He is calling out in love to everyone on the earth - Please turn away from sin and give Me your heart and faith and I will save you. Why do you choose to sin and die? Come to me all of you who are burdened and weighed down by the things of this world and I will give you rest. Choose life not death. I am here for you - I love you. Repent and come to me today while there is still time I am right here waiting for you in your heart. Come now.

JesusLives · May 30, 2020

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

That is your opinion. Mine is that it is twisted to think that God could ever hate those He created. God even loves Satan and He won't be joyful when he is destroyed. It would be like me having many children and just because some of them might choose to do wrong that I would hate them because they weren't good... Sorry I'm a real Mom. I still love my children but I don't like what they are doing... Why? because they are hurting themselves and others.

But just because they have chosen the wrong path doesn't mean that my love for them changes it just means I need to fight harder for them and pray for them and be there when they realize they have done wrong and some might have a change of heart and come and say I am so sorry Mom I don't ever want to do that again. I will be there ready and waiting to help them in making that change. If they don't change it might break my heart but I won't stop loving them because they are part of me and it will hurt to have to let them go or watch them kill themselves by their wrong choices. But I will never stop loving my children. God is much better at this than I am. So no my opinion to me is not a twisted way of thinking but the way a parent thinks of their children.

DanielT · May 30, 2020

Fastfredy0 said:

0) Ok. Let's define love...

The Greek word used over and over again for God's love in the New Testament is ἀγάπη (agapē). This word, unlike the other Greek words for "love", embraces a universal, unconditional love that transcends and persists regardless of circumstance. It goes beyond just the emotions to the extent of seeking the best for others. C.S. Lewis defined "agapē" as "a selfless love that is passionately committed to the well-being of others".

Now, is there support in Scripture for Lewis's definition? Yes! There most certainly is!

Let's have a look at Matthew 7:12

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. "

And how is it that we would have others treat us? Well, I assume we would want them to treat us in such a way that is both fair and conducive to our well-being wouldn't we? We would want others to treat us with kindness, respect, compassion and goodwill would we not?

Paul has a similar take on the definition of love. He said: "Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:10

But let's not rest our argument on assumptions. Let's see if Jesus elucidates the issue...

In Luke 10, Jesus told a supposed expert in the law to ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ The supposed expert asked Him how he was supposed to love his neighbor and who his neighbour was... and Jesus answered him by telling him the Parable of the Good Samaritan. We all know the story, of course... the point Jesus was making was that one who loved his neighbour was "the one who showed him mercy" (Luke 10:37), i.e. the one who showed concern his well-being.

A few more verses to drive the point home...

"If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink." - Proverbs 25:21

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." - Romans 12:20

The second verse, from Romans, will be of interest in understanding the nature of Judgement within the context of a God who is Love.

1) "Does God "take pleasure in" the wicked as much as he does those IN CHRIST?"

God does not take pleasure in their sinful deeds, but He does take pleasure in the fact that they are His image bearers. One thing He most certainly does NOT take pleasure in is their destruction. He says "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live." (Ezekiel 33:11) Why does He not take pleasure in the destruction of people He supposedly hates?

2) They do not presently have a perfect bond of unity with God, of course. That does not mean that there is no desire on God's part for that perfect bond of unity to become effected. Let's put it this way; the Prodigal son did not have a perfect bond of unity when he left his Father's house. Yet, that did not keep his Father from loving him.

3) This was already answered before. He does not love that which is unholy, i.e. sin. He loves that which was made in His image.

4) The issue of the fate of the unevangelized is a whole different subject, but personally, I do not place limits on God's ability to effect salvation even in those cases.

“God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4)

If He desires them to be saved, they can be saved.

5) This is a repeat of question 2.

JesusLives · May 30, 2020

I googled God hates the wicked here is some of what I found:

Psalm 11:5The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked; His soul hates the lover of violence.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
My thought - hates the sin act.

Psalm 5:5 King James Version (KJV)

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Commentary note:
Verse 5. (last clause). Those whom the Lord hates must perish. But he hates impenitent sinners, Thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Now, who are so properly workers of iniquity as those who are so eager at it that they will not leave this work, though they be in danger to perish for it? Christ puts it out of doubt. The workers of iniquity must perish. Luke 13:27 . Those whom the Lord will tear in his wrath must perish with a witness; but those whom he hates, he tears, &c. Job 16:8 . What more due to such impenitent sinners than hatred? What more proper than wrath, since they treasure up wrath? Romans 2:5 . Will he entertain those in the bosom of love whom his soul hates? No; destruction is their portion. Proverbs 21:15 . If all the curses of the law, all the threatenings of the gospel, all judgments in earth or in hell, will be the ruin of him, he must perish. If the Lord's arm be strong enough to wound him dead, he must die. Psalms 68:21 ... Avoid all that Christ hates. If you love, approve, entertain that which is hateful to Christ, how can he love you? What is that which Christ hates? The psalmist ( Psalms 45:7 ) tells us, making it one of Christ's attributes, to hate wickedness ... As Christ hates iniquity, so the "workers of iniquity." You must not love them, so as to be intimate with them, delight in the company of evil doers, openly profane, scorners of godliness, obstructors of the power of it. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 . If you love so near relations to wicked men, Christ will have no relation to you. If you would have communion with Christ in sweet acts of love, you must have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, nor those that act them. David Clarkson, B.D., 1621-1686.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My thought...
God still had love for these people in that He sent Jesus to die for their sins also they just chose not to accept that gift. God's hate is different than our human hate. They were impenitent sinners their sinful actions they didn't want to stop. Doesn't mean God didn't love them ever.

Ezekiel 33:10-12 International Standard Version (ISV)
God Hates the Death of the Wicked
10 “‘Now, Son of Man, tell this to the house of Israel:

‘You keep saying, “Our crimes and sins burden us so much that we’re rotting away, so how can we keep on living?”’

11 “Tell them, ‘As certainly as I’m alive and living,’ declares the Lord God, ‘I receive no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Instead, my pleasure is that the wicked repent from their behavior[a] and live. Turn back! Turn back, all of you, from your wicked behavior! Why do you have to die, you house of Israel?’”

DanielT · May 30, 2020

6) This is a two-part question.

"What is your explanation for so many verses telling us God hates, loathes, is repulsed by ... those you say He loves?"

I already addressed this issue in a previous post. This is a case of biblical phenomenological language. Just as one would not read passages like Exodus 32:14, Genesis 6:6, Amos 7:3, and others that talk about God repenting or changing His mind, in a straightfoward fashion, so too should these passages be read figuratively.

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." - Romans 12:20

I mentioned before that this verse would come up again with regards to what I believe concerning the nature of Judgement. Paul is saying here that the very fact that you are showing kindness and benevolence towards your enemy can become a source of torment to them not because you yourself are actually tormenting them in any sort of cruel or sadistic fashion, but because they are unable to receive or reciprocate it.

And that is essentially what I believe is the nature of Judgement in the End. God's Light, His Glory and His Holiness will fill the whole Earth, and to those who love Him it will be a source of unspeakable joy, but to those who hate Him it will be a source of agony, not because God literally hates them, but because they hate Him.

What did Jesus say about God's light coming into the world and how people react to it when it does?

He said... "Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God."

"...why doesn't He send the sin to hell and save whatever is left over?"

He would... If only they would let go of their sin.

7) This logic is faulty even from a Calvinistic perspective. Let's assume Calvinism is correct and God only loves the elect... are you saying He only started loving the elect AFTER they began to obey Him? Are you saying He didn't love them before their conversion, or are you saying that those who are elect were never sinners? Even Calvinists agree that God loved some people from eternity past, not because of their obedience but despite their disobedience.

8) No, I can't. But as you said, that's circumstancial and supports neither argument.

9) Again, I can't. But as you said, that's circumstancial and supports neither argument.

10) Good question. I don't know. That's a mystery. But Calvinists have their mysteries too.

Here's an example of where a Calvinist will typically appeal to mystery: Why did God choose you over some reprobate? Was it something about who you are as an individual, or was it just random luck?

Calvinists (typically) can't answer that it was luck because that would completely de-personalize what Jesus did on the Cross. Even the most hard-nosed Calvinists I know believe that Jesus died for them. The elect are not just a random faceless number, they believe the atonement was personal. But if that's the case, how do you escape the conclusion that it was something about YOU that caused God to love you more than someone else. Calvinists can't say that because that would be a basis for pride, which they claim Calvinism is totally opposed to. So they just avoid that question and appeal to mystery if it ever comes up.

Angela53510 · May 31, 2020

JesusLives said:

That is your opinion. Mine is that it is twisted to think that God could ever hate those He created. God even loves Satan and He won't be joyful when he is destroyed. It would be like me having many children and just because some of them might choose to do wrong that I would hate them because they weren't good... Sorry I'm a real Mom. I still love my children but I don't like what they are doing... Why? because they are hurting themselves and others.

But just because they have chosen the wrong path doesn't mean that my love for them changes it just means I need to fight harder for them and pray for them and be there when they realize they have done wrong and some might have a change of heart and come and say I am so sorry Mom I don't ever want to do that again. I will be there ready and waiting to help them in making that change. If they don't change it might break my heart but I won't stop loving them because they are part of me and it will hurt to have to let them go or watch them kill themselves by their wrong choices. But I will never stop loving my children. God is much better at this than I am. So no my opinion to me is not a twisted way of thinking but the way a parent thinks of their children.

You are wrong, God does NOT love Satan! Show me the exact place in the Bible it says that! You can't because it isn't there.

That is a big heresy. God does not love a fallen, evil angel. This is just made up, extra-biblical nonsense! Please repent of this terrible belief!

Funkus · May 31, 2020

Plenty of modern Christians don't believe in a literal hell, eg just a separation etc
After centuries off a fearsome God its a welcome relief!

EleventhHour · May 31, 2020

DanielT said:

0) Ok. Let's define love...

The Greek word used over and over again for God's love in the New Testament is ἀγάπη (agapē). This word, unlike the other Greek words for "love", embraces a universal, unconditional love that transcends and persists regardless of circumstance. It goes beyond just the emotions to the extent of seeking the best for others. C.S. Lewis defined "agapē" as "a selfless love that is passionately committed to the well-being of others".

Now, is there support in Scripture for Lewis's definition? Yes! There most certainly is!

Let's have a look at Matthew 7:12

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. "

And how is it that we would have others treat us? Well, I assume we would want them to treat us in such a way that is both fair and conducive to our well-being wouldn't we? We would want others to treat us with kindness, respect, compassion and goodwill would we not?

Paul has a similar take on the definition of love. He said: "Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:10

But let's not rest our argument on assumptions. Let's see if Jesus elucidates the issue...

In Luke 10, Jesus told a supposed expert in the law to ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ The supposed expert asked Him how he was supposed to love his neighbor and who his neighbour was... and Jesus answered him by telling him the Parable of the Good Samaritan. We all know the story, of course... the point Jesus was making was that one who loved his neighbour was "the one who showed him mercy" (Luke 10:37), i.e. the one who showed concern his well-being.

A few more verses to drive the point home...

"If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink." - Proverbs 25:21

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." - Romans 12:20

The second verse, from Romans, will be of interest in understanding the nature of Judgement within the context of a God who is Love.

1) "Does God "take pleasure in" the wicked as much as he does those IN CHRIST?"

God does not take pleasure in their sinful deeds, but He does take pleasure in the fact that they are His image bearers. One thing He most certainly does NOT take pleasure in is their destruction. He says "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live." (Ezekiel 33:11) Why does He not take pleasure in the destruction of people He supposedly hates?

2) They do not presently have a perfect bond of unity with God, of course. That does not mean that there is no desire on God's part for that perfect bond of unity to become effected. Let's put it this way; the Prodigal son did not have a perfect bond of unity when he left his Father's house. Yet, that did not keep his Father from loving him.

3) This was already answered before. He does not love that which is unholy, i.e. sin. He loves that which was made in His image.

4) The issue of the fate of the unevangelized is a whole different subject, but personally, I do not place limits on God's ability to effect salvation even in those cases.

“God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4)

If He desires them to be saved, they can be saved.

5) This is a repeat of question 2.

I think you have answered all the questions posed to me. Thank you

Okay @Fastfredy0

You have your answers

"God loves everyone" - false

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