The absurdity and heresy of Preterism
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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My approach is historicist not preterist. Come On!
And bible prophesy is NOT very clear. It is OBSCURE!!!!
You do not know if 1260 is days or years. You say you know but you are deceiving yourself and others.
You can't know until after fulfillment of the prophesy and with proper matching to historical record.
One might contend that Julius Caesar is the the first emperor of the little horn 49 BC. And the emperors of the Roman Empire remained in power until the Sacking of Constantinople 1204 AD.
49BC + 1204AB - 1 yr = 1252 years which is close to 1260 years.
Or one might contend that the little horn which uprooted three horns is a reference to the first triumvirate, which ended in 53BC
so 53 BC + 1204 AD - 1yr = 1256 yrs.
The Roman empire could be said to have lasted 1256 years which = 1260 years.
And bible prophesy is NOT very clear. It is OBSCURE!!!!
You do not know if 1260 is days or years. You say you know but you are deceiving yourself and others.
You can't know until after fulfillment of the prophesy and with proper matching to historical record.
One might contend that Julius Caesar is the the first emperor of the little horn 49 BC. And the emperors of the Roman Empire remained in power until the Sacking of Constantinople 1204 AD.
49BC + 1204AB - 1 yr = 1252 years which is close to 1260 years.
Or one might contend that the little horn which uprooted three horns is a reference to the first triumvirate, which ended in 53BC
so 53 BC + 1204 AD - 1yr = 1256 yrs.
The Roman empire could be said to have lasted 1256 years which = 1260 years.
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The 1260 days, 42 months and a time, times and a half a time, all represent the seven year period described in Daniel 9:27.
The Gentiles trample the holy city = 42 months
The two witnesses = Prophesy for 1260 days
The woman/Israel flees out into the desert = 1260 days or a time, times and half a time
The beast makes war agains the great tribulation saints = 42 months
The seven years described in Daniel 9:27 are divided into two 3 1/2 year period, the dividing event being the setting up of the abomination that cause desolation.
It is my conclusion that the time of the prophesy of the two witnesses will be from the beginning of the seven years to the middle. And that because in Rev.12, in the middle of the seven the woman/Israel flees out into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years up until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. That would mean that if we put the time of prophecy of the two witnesses as beginning from the middle of the seven years to the end, Israel would not be there to hear their prophesies, because they will have already fled. In addition, since the beast comes up out of the Abyss at the sounding of the 5th trumpet, it would mean that he would have to wait for over 3 1/2 years before he could kill the two witnesses.
The time of when the beast makes war and conquers the great tribulation saints, will be from the middle of the seven years to the end when Jesus returns. This is also the same time that the woman/Israel is cared for out in the wilderness.
The Gentiles trample the holy city = 42 months
The two witnesses = Prophesy for 1260 days
The woman/Israel flees out into the desert = 1260 days or a time, times and half a time
The beast makes war agains the great tribulation saints = 42 months
The seven years described in Daniel 9:27 are divided into two 3 1/2 year period, the dividing event being the setting up of the abomination that cause desolation.
It is my conclusion that the time of the prophesy of the two witnesses will be from the beginning of the seven years to the middle. And that because in Rev.12, in the middle of the seven the woman/Israel flees out into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years up until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. That would mean that if we put the time of prophecy of the two witnesses as beginning from the middle of the seven years to the end, Israel would not be there to hear their prophesies, because they will have already fled. In addition, since the beast comes up out of the Abyss at the sounding of the 5th trumpet, it would mean that he would have to wait for over 3 1/2 years before he could kill the two witnesses.
The time of when the beast makes war and conquers the great tribulation saints, will be from the middle of the seven years to the end when Jesus returns. This is also the same time that the woman/Israel is cared for out in the wilderness.
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There is a lot more contradiction when test running literal rapture... people just pick one verse, but in the passage, this was promised to specific Thessalonian believers, specifically those among them "who are still alive and remain" at the time when this rapture event was supposed to happen. But those Thessalonians were not literally raptured in the air at any time... yet they were told to comfort one another with this, that they were to meet Christ in the air, (literally so, if we apply this hypothesis), and precisely while they were still alive. Not 2000 years later. But this had never come to pass. So either we will believe that an apostle gave them false prophecy and false comfort, or it's time to seek another interpretation. I agree with you. Those who are "already asleep" already met Christ in His cloud of glory, the whole passage was to convince the Thessalonians that those who already died wouldn't "miss out" on Jesus' coming, but it was rather suggested not to worry - they were already in the cloud with Jesus and would meet them later.
DURING the trib years (that is, AFTER "our Rapture"), "this gospel OF THE KINGDOM" will be preached in all the world, Matthew 24:14[26:13].
As for the rest of your post, I cannot make heads nor tails out of it... my apologies.
As for the rest of your post, I cannot make heads nor tails out of it... my apologies.
But so many people here believed in the Covenant Theology doctrine that it was always ONE gospel throughout all times, which is the Covenant of Grace.
So whatever the contents of the gospel of the kingdom you claim, it must also be that gospel that is being preached now right?
Correct. (Glad we can agree on one point, anyway! Woohoo!)
So where Matt24:15 says, "Therefore when ye shall see [the AOD]...," the "ye" here is a "proleptic 'you/ye'," meaning, "those in the future, OF THE SAME CATEGORY"... and in this context, that means, "THOSE TO WHOM the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom" was promised. (The ID of which is not [pertaining to]"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" / US. [ppl have a bad habit of reading themselves/'the Church which is His body' INTO every passage they read--THIS passage/context is not speaking of it/this])
So where Matt24:15 says, "Therefore when ye shall see [the AOD]...," the "ye" here is a "proleptic 'you/ye'," meaning, "those in the future, OF THE SAME CATEGORY"... and in this context, that means, "THOSE TO WHOM the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom" was promised. (The ID of which is not [pertaining to]"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" / US.
[ppl have a bad habit of reading themselves/'the Church which is His body' INTO every passage they read--THIS passage/context is not speaking of it/this])
Then you try to sneak a literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth in on the deal?
Watermark: a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth, where Jesus returns and hangs out with mortal humans is?
A Big Fairy Tale, found "No Place" in the Holy Scripture.
The timing of the rapture is provided. The rapture occurs just before the man of sin is revealed. In fact it is the rapture that is the event that ALLOWS the man of sin to be revealed! Since the man of sin has not yet been revealed, and the rapture is not yet occurred, therefore it must occur at some point in the future. Very straightforward, logical and rational.
We agree pretty much on this point. ^
Jesus spoke of it throughout His entire earthly ministry (first advent)... every time that He spoke of:
--"the kingdom OF THE heavenS"
--"the age [SINGULAR] to come"
--"the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"
--the "G347 - 'shall sit down' [around a table/at a meal]"
--the TWO times He referred to "RETURN" [re: Himself], Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN," and Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 [and their parallels], "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom), THEN the meal!
--the times He told "the 12" they would "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel"
--when He referred to "in the regeneration when..." (that ^ reference [one of them])... "when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of His glory" [<--this being His EARTHLY "throne" upon His RETURN to the earth (there will be NO "goats" in Heaven, for example, Matt25:31-34 [parallel parts of Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50])]
--ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/etc" references (referring to His RETURN to the earth; NOT "our Rapture") to "judge and to reign"
--many more references...
Up till the time He spoke His Olivet Discourse (and INCLUDING IT), He had NOT YET spoken to them ANYTHING about anything else but [what we call] "the promised AND PROPHESIED *earthly* Millennial Kingdom".
It is man's imagination that believes any and all of the above "contexts" ^ refer to "UP IN Heaven" INSTEAD, which they do not.
Jesus spoke of it throughout His entire earthly ministry (first advent)... every time that He spoke of:
--"the kingdom OF THE heavenS"
--"the age [SINGULAR] to come"
--"the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"
--the "G347 - 'shall sit down' [around a table/at a meal]"
--the TWO times He referred to "RETURN" [re: Himself], Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN," and Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 [and their parallels], "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom), THEN the meal!
--the times He told "the 12" they would "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel"
--when He referred to "in the regeneration when..." (that ^ reference [one of them])... "when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of His glory" [<--this being His EARTHLY "throne" upon His RETURN to the earth (there will be NO "goats" in Heaven, for example, Matt25:31-34 [parallel parts of Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50])]
--ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/etc" references (referring to His RETURN to the earth; NOT "our Rapture") to "judge and to reign"
--many more references...
Up till the time He spoke His Olivet Discourse (and INCLUDING IT), He had NOT YET spoken to them ANYTHING about anything else but [what we call] "the promised AND PROPHESIED *earthly* Millennial Kingdom".
It is man's imagination that believes any and all of the above "contexts" ^ refer to "UP IN Heaven" INSTEAD, which they do not.
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The timing of the "rapture" in Thessalonians is very specifically, and literally from context, bound to the lifetimes of the listeners, though:
1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The interpretation of the time of Christ's coming must satisfy all the Scriptures, not only a few.
1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The interpretation of the time of Christ's coming must satisfy all the Scriptures, not only a few.