THE LIE IN LORDSHIP SALVATION THEORY

cv5 · May 25, 2020

"Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic." (Hard to Believe, p. 93 .. 2nd Edition)

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

The words posited in the OP were a publisher's error in the 2003, 1st Edition of John MacArthur's book, Hard to Believe. The errors were not discovered until the 1st Edition had already hit the bookshelves, but as soon as they were, the corrections that you see above (in bold) were made to the text, and a 2nd, corrected edition was released soon after.

It is important to note that the 1st Edition words (that seem to support the OP's false/incorrect definition of Lordship salvation) are not the words that the book's author (MacArthur) intended or wrote, rather, they were revisions made by an editor w/o his knowledge or consent. To be clear, Dr. MacArthur believes that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, apart from good works (or anything else that ~we~ do).

Finally, Dr. MacArthur neither teaches nor believes the OP's unique definition of "Lordship Salvation" (that "one's salvation is CONDITIONAL upon the life we live"), because that is NOT the correct definition of Lordship Salvation.

Here's the public statement that MacArthur and his broadcast ministry made concerning the 2003 1st Edition book errors and what they did to correct them.

Does John MacArthur teach salvation by works in his book Hard to Believe?

One paragraph in the first edition of Hard to Believe contained a glaring error that has the potential to mislead readers about the book’s whole intent. The problematic passage is the opening paragraph of chapter 6 (page 93), which seems to suggest that salvation is the fruit of godly living. The truth is exactly the opposite.

The error was inadvertently introduced into the manuscript in the late stages of the editorial process, when (in order to simplify the book) four chapters were deleted from the original manuscript and one of the remaining chapters was severely abridged. John MacArthur approved the abridgments.

Apparently, however, in an effort to make a new transition that would smooth over the deletions, an editor involved in the process made significant revisions to the opening of chapter 6. Unfortunately, that change was not submitted to John for approval. We believe the error was an oversight, and not anyone’s deliberate attempt to tamper with the book’s theology. The result, however, severely muddled the message of the book.

A revision was sent to the publisher for future editions of the book. In all subsequent printings, here is how the opening paragraph of chapter six reads (revisions are in bold):

"Don’t believe anyone who says it’s easy to become a Christian. Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God’s Son His life, and it’ll cost you the same thing. Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic."

~https://www.gty.org/library/Questions/QA508

~Deut

Wow great detective or Deut! Much obliged brother!

wolfwint · May 25, 2020

Deuteronomy said:

So he use it, to proclaim his View as truth, what it not is. This is the lie in this thread.

cv5 · May 25, 2020

cv5 said:

(1 Pet 2:12)
Conduct yourselves with such honor among the Gentiles that, though they slander you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day He visits us.

Deuteronomy · May 25, 2020

cv5 said:

I've been paying attention to what Dr. MacArthur teaches for almost 34 years now, so as soon as I read the quote that Sudakar posited in the OP, I knew something had to be wrong.

Sudakar · May 25, 2020

Chester said:

Thanks for asking - good question . . .

Here is the original post I was responding to:
Anyone who has the gift of faith will automatically do works by availing himself to God-s will. It is the new man, and it demonstrates having faith ,without consciously attempting to demonstrate it. All the children know this.

And then I responded by asking: Do you have a Scripture that says it is automatic?

First of all, you already really answered the question by saying: it wasn't all automatic of course, and by no means did everything come on so quickly,

My point is that the Christian life takes effort, practice, discipline, guts, and hard work! And that is not a negative statement! We are made in God's image and it is a privilege, honor, and glory to work for Him It is what we were made for! The elite corps of the U.S. Marines trains hard, works hard, has guts, discipline and so on! But that is nothing to what the Christian should have for God's kingdom!

So when I see a quote that the Christian life is "automatic" or "without consciously attempting" I wonder what is going on in a person's mind? Too many Christians get born again, then pull out the bag of potato chips and a beer and lay down on the sofa and watch TV while the rest of the world is going to hell! There is a war (for souls) out here! Hey, come one, get on board and fight, and "having done all to stand."

Now does that mean that man is doing the work? Absolutely not! Without God's Spirit I can do nothing for God's Kingdom. Salvation is not of works, but we are His workmanship - He does the working through us!

If it was all automatic, I would need to do nothing at all. Too many Christians in the US today live that way!

Philippians 2:13.

Sudakar · May 25, 2020

preacher4truth said:

1. He holds disdain for "evidence of conversion" all the while announcing his alleged sinless perfection as "evidence of his own conversion" while ridiculing others.

preacher4truth disdains the all sufficiency of faith in Christ's atonement.

2. He proclaims he is perfect according to Matthew 5:48, yet obviously isn't. Why? He provided slanderous accusations against John MacArthur that are proven baseless and untrue. But that doesn't matter to him. If he were "perfect" he would not have made such a mistake, nor committed this sin.

preacher4truth slanders and confused between perfection by faith and works.

3. His behavior is trollish, posting the same response many times in a row to several people, and, he also avoids where he has been refuted, corrected &c.

preacher4truth trolls & slanders when there was no correction from him but a repetition of his denial of grace.

4. He blindly keeps posting the same things, paying little to no attention to what others have said.

preacher4truth hasn't answered what is signified by his evil works if his good works signify proof he has saving faith.

5. He digs up my older posts after I stated he can get his last word in, so, when others aren't responding, he does this in order to attempt to get some more arguing going.

preacher4truth is trolling now even after he claims he had his last word.

6. He has other threads where he engages in the same behaviors.

preacher4truth displays this same behavior whereever possible.

Side note, Matthew 5:48 is fulfilled by Christ for those in Christ. It is then exemplified in the believer by living a sanctified lie, sanctification, Hebrews 12:14; Romans 6:22 (a very wonderful verse!)

Nonsense. Mathew 5:48 us fulfilled by Christ for the elect sinners and not for the worthy.

Sudakar · May 25, 2020

Judges1318 said:

One part of what you said is correct.
Present believing is no automatic guarantee of future believing.
But the person who is presently believing is most definitely presently saved.

"2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you." - 1 Corinthians 15:2

'Are saved' and 'hold firmly' are both in the present tense. The person who is presently holding fast to the gospel is presently saved.

Let's test your opinion about not having joy against scripture:

"13Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." - Luke 8:13

As we can see, this person who only believed for a while did indeed have joy.

The saved believer can have the joy of his salvation as long as he is believing. Obviously, if he stops believing he can not have the joy of a salvation he longer has.

Good works cannot prove one has saving faith because according to God's standard, only Christ did perfect good works according to James 2:10.

Sudakar · May 25, 2020

Judges1318 said:

What I don't do is live in evil works.

Non christians also don't.

I do not have the mindset of the flesh.
What's happening to me is I am moving in progress towards the perfection of Christ:

Perfection is imputed not worked.

That's how I know for sure that I am saved and have the Spirit of God inside of me in salvation, and why I should continue to believe.

Confessions of faith gives surety one has saving faith.

Unsaved people who do not have the Spirit and who live in evil works are not making progress towards Christ likeness. In fact, they are becoming more and more corrupt in the mindset of the flesh and their works of evil.

Flesh is trusting in one's works to prove saving faith.

Sudakar · May 25, 2020

cv5 said:

Preacher4truth denies faith in His grace.

Sudakar · May 25, 2020

cv5 said:

If the good deeds are according to God's standard in Mathew 5:48.

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · May 25, 2020

Sudakar said:

1. He holds disdain for "evidence of conversion" all the while announcing his alleged sinless perfection as "evidence of his own conversion" while ridiculing others.

preacher4truth disdains the all sufficiency of faith in Christ's atonement.

2. He proclaims he is perfect according to Matthew 5:48, yet obviously isn't. Why? He provided slanderous accusations against John MacArthur that are proven baseless and untrue. But that doesn't matter to him. If he were "perfect" he would not have made such a mistake, nor committed this sin.

preacher4truth slanders and confused between perfection by faith and works.

3. His behavior is trollish, posting the same response many times in a row to several people, and, he also avoids where he has been refuted, corrected &c.

preacher4truth trolls & slanders when there was no correction from him but a repetition of his denial of grace.

4. He blindly keeps posting the same things, paying little to no attention to what others have said.

preacher4truth hasn't answered what is signified by his evil works if his good works signify proof he has saving faith.

5. He digs up my older posts after I stated he can get his last word in, so, when others aren't responding, he does this in order to attempt to get some more arguing going.

preacher4truth is trolling now even after he claims he had his last word.

6. He has other threads where he engages in the same behaviors.

preacher4truth displays this same behavior whereever possible.

Side note, Matthew 5:48 is fulfilled by Christ for those in Christ. It is then exemplified in the believer by living a sanctified lie, sanctification, Hebrews 12:14; Romans 6:22 (a very wonderful verse!)

Nonsense. Mathew 5:48 us fulfilled by Christ for the elect sinners and not for the worthy.

More lies coming from you. Why posit Matthew 5:48 in post after post after post after post after post, then live in a life chocked full of lying?

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · May 25, 2020

Sudakar said:

More lies. You don’t struggle with the truth, you avoid it all cost.

Sudakar · May 25, 2020

Deuteronomy said:

"Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic." (Hard to Believe, p. 93 .. 2nd Edition)

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

The words posited in the OP were a publisher's error in the 2003, 1st Edition of John MacArthur's book, Hard to Believe. The errors were not discovered until the 1st Edition had already hit the bookshelves, but as soon as they were, the corrections that you see above (in bold) were made to the text, and a 2nd, corrected edition was released soon after.

It is important to note that the 1st Edition words (that seem to support the OP's false/incorrect definition of Lordship salvation) are not the words that the book's author (MacArthur) intended or wrote, rather, they were revisions made by an editor w/o his knowledge or consent. To be clear, Dr. MacArthur believes that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, apart from good works (or anything else that ~we~ do).

Finally, Dr. MacArthur neither teaches nor believes the OP's unique definition of "Lordship Salvation" (that "one's salvation is CONDITIONAL upon the life we live"), because that is NOT the correct definition of Lordship Salvation.

Here's the public statement that MacArthur and his broadcast ministry made concerning the 2003 1st Edition book errors and what they did to correct them.

Does John MacArthur teach salvation by works in his book Hard to Believe?

One paragraph in the first edition of Hard to Believe contained a glaring error that has the potential to mislead readers about the book’s whole intent. The problematic passage is the opening paragraph of chapter 6 (page 93), which seems to suggest that salvation is the fruit of godly living. The truth is exactly the opposite.

The error was inadvertently introduced into the manuscript in the late stages of the editorial process, when (in order to simplify the book) four chapters were deleted from the original manuscript and one of the remaining chapters was severely abridged. John MacArthur approved the abridgments.

Apparently, however, in an effort to make a new transition that would smooth over the deletions, an editor involved in the process made significant revisions to the opening of chapter 6. Unfortunately, that change was not submitted to John for approval. We believe the error was an oversight, and not anyone’s deliberate attempt to tamper with the book’s theology. The result, however, severely muddled the message of the book.

A revision was sent to the publisher for future editions of the book. In all subsequent printings, here is how the opening paragraph of chapter six reads (revisions are in bold):

"Don’t believe anyone who says it’s easy to become a Christian. Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God’s Son His life, and it’ll cost you the same thing. Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic."

~https://www.gty.org/library/Questions/QA508

~Deut

Good works cannot prove one has saving faith because according to God's standard, only Christ did perfect good works according to James 2:10.

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · May 25, 2020

cv5 said:

Watch out. You’re gonna get slandered and say you hold to works.

Sudakar · May 25, 2020

wolfwint said:

Wolfwint is a works based pharisee who opposes Christ righteousness.

Sudakar · May 25, 2020

Deuteronomy said:

Self righteousness doesn't sell as truth.

Sudakar · May 25, 2020

Deuteronomy said:

Regardless of how much you distort, you cannot deny lordship salvationists' intent to sneak in works to prove one's saving faith.

Sudakar · May 25, 2020

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

Your holding to the heresy of works to prove your saving faith is your admission. It doesn't need slander.

Good works cannot prove one has saving faith because according to God's standard, only Christ did perfect good works according to James 2:10.

Sudakar · May 25, 2020

cv5 said:

Good works cannot prove one has saving faith because according to God's standard, only Christ did perfect good works according to James 2:10.

Sudakar · May 25, 2020

cv5 said:

Pharisees did this to show they were saved.

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