THE LIE IN LORDSHIP SALVATION THEORY
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Thanks for asking - good question . . .
Here is the original post I was responding to:
Anyone who has the gift of faith will automatically do works by availing himself to God-s will. It is the new man, and it demonstrates having faith ,without consciously attempting to demonstrate it. All the children know this.
And then I responded by asking: Do you have a Scripture that says it is automatic?
First of all, you already really answered the question by saying: it wasn't all automatic of course, and by no means did everything come on so quickly,
My point is that the Christian life takes effort, practice, discipline, guts, and hard work! And that is not a negative statement! We are made in God's image and it is a privilege, honor, and glory to work for Him It is what we were made for! The elite corps of the U.S. Marines trains hard, works hard, has guts, discipline and so on! But that is nothing to what the Christian should have for God's kingdom!
So when I see a quote that the Christian life is "automatic" or "without consciously attempting" I wonder what is going on in a person's mind? Too many Christians get born again, then pull out the bag of potato chips and a beer and lay down on the sofa and watch TV while the rest of the world is going to hell! There is a war (for souls) out here! Hey, come one, get on board and fight, and "having done all to stand."
Now does that mean that man is doing the work? Absolutely not! Without God's Spirit I can do nothing for God's Kingdom. Salvation is not of works, but we are His workmanship - He does the working through us!
If it was all automatic, I would need to do nothing at all. Too many Christians in the US today live that way!
Here is the original post I was responding to:
Anyone who has the gift of faith will automatically do works by availing himself to God-s will. It is the new man, and it demonstrates having faith ,without consciously attempting to demonstrate it. All the children know this.
And then I responded by asking: Do you have a Scripture that says it is automatic?
First of all, you already really answered the question by saying: it wasn't all automatic of course, and by no means did everything come on so quickly,
My point is that the Christian life takes effort, practice, discipline, guts, and hard work! And that is not a negative statement! We are made in God's image and it is a privilege, honor, and glory to work for Him It is what we were made for! The elite corps of the U.S. Marines trains hard, works hard, has guts, discipline and so on! But that is nothing to what the Christian should have for God's kingdom!
So when I see a quote that the Christian life is "automatic" or "without consciously attempting" I wonder what is going on in a person's mind? Too many Christians get born again, then pull out the bag of potato chips and a beer and lay down on the sofa and watch TV while the rest of the world is going to hell! There is a war (for souls) out here! Hey, come one, get on board and fight, and "having done all to stand."
Now does that mean that man is doing the work? Absolutely not! Without God's Spirit I can do nothing for God's Kingdom. Salvation is not of works, but we are His workmanship - He does the working through us!
If it was all automatic, I would need to do nothing at all. Too many Christians in the US today live that way!
Some of the apparent flaws of the troll @Sudakar
1. He holds disdain for "evidence of conversion" all the while announcing his alleged sinless perfection as "evidence of his own conversion" while ridiculing others.
2. He proclaims he is perfect according to Matthew 5:48, yet obviously isn't. Why? He provided slanderous accusations against John MacArthur that are proven baseless and untrue. But that doesn't matter to him. If he were "perfect" he would not have made such a mistake, nor committed this sin.
3. His behavior is trollish, posting the same response many times in a row to several people, and, he also avoids where he has been refuted, corrected &c.
4. He blindly keeps posting the same things, paying little to no attention to what others have said.
5. He digs up my older posts after I stated he can get his last word in, so, when others aren't responding, he does this in order to attempt to get some more arguing going.
6. He has other threads where he engages in the same behaviors.
Side note, Matthew 5:48 is fulfilled by Christ for those in Christ. It is then exemplified in the believer by living a sanctified lie, sanctification, Hebrews 12:14; Romans 6:22 (a very wonderful verse!)
1. He holds disdain for "evidence of conversion" all the while announcing his alleged sinless perfection as "evidence of his own conversion" while ridiculing others.
2. He proclaims he is perfect according to Matthew 5:48, yet obviously isn't. Why? He provided slanderous accusations against John MacArthur that are proven baseless and untrue. But that doesn't matter to him. If he were "perfect" he would not have made such a mistake, nor committed this sin.
3. His behavior is trollish, posting the same response many times in a row to several people, and, he also avoids where he has been refuted, corrected &c.
4. He blindly keeps posting the same things, paying little to no attention to what others have said.
5. He digs up my older posts after I stated he can get his last word in, so, when others aren't responding, he does this in order to attempt to get some more arguing going.
6. He has other threads where he engages in the same behaviors.
Side note, Matthew 5:48 is fulfilled by Christ for those in Christ. It is then exemplified in the believer by living a sanctified lie, sanctification, Hebrews 12:14; Romans 6:22 (a very wonderful verse!)
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I wish I could remove my posts...I feel like I was ranting...I was...but it showed a lack of control and that I am not happy about.
I don´t think I am taking part in this thread anymore...
This man is a hypocrite...and I am not so sure he understands what the righteousness of GOD is...
And in fact what does the righteousness that is of faith say for that matter?
Romans 10 is sufficient
Oh boy...yes, I think he disregards the righteousness that is of faith with his unrighteous remarks and judgments...
We are NOT even to say who will ascend or who will descend...
Yet he has no problem doing this...
I don´t think I am taking part in this thread anymore...
This man is a hypocrite...and I am not so sure he understands what the righteousness of GOD is...
And in fact what does the righteousness that is of faith say for that matter?
Romans 10 is sufficient
Oh boy...yes, I think he disregards the righteousness that is of faith with his unrighteous remarks and judgments...
We are NOT even to say who will ascend or who will descend...
Yet he has no problem doing this...
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One part of what you said is correct.
Present believing is no automatic guarantee of future believing.
But the person who is presently believing is most definitely presently saved.
"2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you." - 1 Corinthians 15:2
'Are saved' and 'hold firmly' are both in the present tense. The person who is presently holding fast to the gospel is presently saved.
Let's test your opinion about not having joy against scripture:
"13Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." - Luke 8:13
As we can see, this person who only believed for a while did indeed have joy.
The saved believer can have the joy of his salvation as long as he is believing. Obviously, if he stops believing he can not have the joy of a salvation he longer has.
Present believing is no automatic guarantee of future believing.
But the person who is presently believing is most definitely presently saved.
"2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you." - 1 Corinthians 15:2
'Are saved' and 'hold firmly' are both in the present tense. The person who is presently holding fast to the gospel is presently saved.
Let's test your opinion about not having joy against scripture:
"13Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." - Luke 8:13
As we can see, this person who only believed for a while did indeed have joy.
The saved believer can have the joy of his salvation as long as he is believing. Obviously, if he stops believing he can not have the joy of a salvation he longer has.
What I don't do is live in evil works.
"21 ...those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." - Galatians 5:21
I do not have the mindset of the flesh.
What's happening to me is I am moving in progress towards the perfection of Christ:
"8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. " - 2 Peter 1:8
That's how I know for sure that I am saved and have the Spirit of God inside of me in salvation, and why I should continue to believe.
Unsaved people who do not have the Spirit and who live in evil works are not making progress towards Christ likeness. In fact, they are becoming more and more corrupt in the mindset of the flesh and their works of evil.
13 ...evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of..." - 2 Timothy 3:13-14
"21 ...those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." - Galatians 5:21
I do not have the mindset of the flesh.
What's happening to me is I am moving in progress towards the perfection of Christ:
"8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. " - 2 Peter 1:8
That's how I know for sure that I am saved and have the Spirit of God inside of me in salvation, and why I should continue to believe.
Unsaved people who do not have the Spirit and who live in evil works are not making progress towards Christ likeness. In fact, they are becoming more and more corrupt in the mindset of the flesh and their works of evil.
13 ...evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of..." - 2 Timothy 3:13-14
May I offer a little advice?
Don't try to change anybody.
Just put what you think is the truth out there and let it do it's work.
Someday, somewhere, perhaps in the depths of a severe personal depression, a divorce, a lost job, a profound illness, or a besetting sin, or a struggle with faith itself, the word you planted or watered will spring to life and the person may receive it and bring it to fruition. And they will be your reward for your labor in the field and building of God. And you will rejoice together in the kingdom.
Just don't expect instant results from your planting and watering. It probably didn't happen that way for you. It wasn't that way for me. Some people are going to be very surprised that I'm a successful result of their work in the field and building of God. Just as I'm going to be surprised at who is going to be my reward for my labor in the field and building of God.
Don't try to change anybody.
Just put what you think is the truth out there and let it do it's work.
Someday, somewhere, perhaps in the depths of a severe personal depression, a divorce, a lost job, a profound illness, or a besetting sin, or a struggle with faith itself, the word you planted or watered will spring to life and the person may receive it and bring it to fruition. And they will be your reward for your labor in the field and building of God. And you will rejoice together in the kingdom.
Just don't expect instant results from your planting and watering. It probably didn't happen that way for you. It wasn't that way for me. Some people are going to be very surprised that I'm a successful result of their work in the field and building of God. Just as I'm going to be surprised at who is going to be my reward for my labor in the field and building of God.
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"Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic." (Hard to Believe, p. 93 .. 2nd Edition)
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The words posited in the OP were a publisher's error in the 2003, 1st Edition of John MacArthur's book, Hard to Believe. The errors were not discovered until the 1st Edition had already hit the bookshelves, but as soon as they were, the corrections that you see above (in bold) were made to the text, and a 2nd, corrected edition was released soon after.
It is important to note that the 1st Edition words (that seem to support the OP's false/incorrect definition of Lordship salvation) are not the words that the book's author (MacArthur) intended or wrote, rather, they were revisions made by an editor w/o his knowledge or consent. To be clear, Dr. MacArthur believes that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, apart from good works (or anything else that ~we~ do).
Finally, Dr. MacArthur neither teaches nor believes the OP's unique definition of "Lordship Salvation" (that "one's salvation is CONDITIONAL upon the life we live"), because that is NOT the correct definition of Lordship Salvation.
Here's the public statement that MacArthur and his broadcast ministry made concerning the 2003 1st Edition book errors and what they did to correct them.
~Deut
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The words posited in the OP were a publisher's error in the 2003, 1st Edition of John MacArthur's book, Hard to Believe. The errors were not discovered until the 1st Edition had already hit the bookshelves, but as soon as they were, the corrections that you see above (in bold) were made to the text, and a 2nd, corrected edition was released soon after.
It is important to note that the 1st Edition words (that seem to support the OP's false/incorrect definition of Lordship salvation) are not the words that the book's author (MacArthur) intended or wrote, rather, they were revisions made by an editor w/o his knowledge or consent. To be clear, Dr. MacArthur believes that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, apart from good works (or anything else that ~we~ do).
Finally, Dr. MacArthur neither teaches nor believes the OP's unique definition of "Lordship Salvation" (that "one's salvation is CONDITIONAL upon the life we live"), because that is NOT the correct definition of Lordship Salvation.
Here's the public statement that MacArthur and his broadcast ministry made concerning the 2003 1st Edition book errors and what they did to correct them.
Does John MacArthur teach salvation by works in his book Hard to Believe?
One paragraph in the first edition of Hard to Believe contained a glaring error that has the potential to mislead readers about the book’s whole intent. The problematic passage is the opening paragraph of chapter 6 (page 93), which seems to suggest that salvation is the fruit of godly living. The truth is exactly the opposite.
The error was inadvertently introduced into the manuscript in the late stages of the editorial process, when (in order to simplify the book) four chapters were deleted from the original manuscript and one of the remaining chapters was severely abridged. John MacArthur approved the abridgments.
Apparently, however, in an effort to make a new transition that would smooth over the deletions, an editor involved in the process made significant revisions to the opening of chapter 6. Unfortunately, that change was not submitted to John for approval. We believe the error was an oversight, and not anyone’s deliberate attempt to tamper with the book’s theology. The result, however, severely muddled the message of the book.
A revision was sent to the publisher for future editions of the book. In all subsequent printings, here is how the opening paragraph of chapter six reads (revisions are in bold):
"Don’t believe anyone who says it’s easy to become a Christian. Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God’s Son His life, and it’ll cost you the same thing. Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic."
~Deut
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