Eternal security? or loss of salvation? what does the bible really say on these two subjects!

[Grandpa]

WOW is that a dumb question or what. LOL you are joking right????. Or are you asking a trick question of entrapment?? Apparently I am conversing with a man who is willingly partially blind. You read what I write but you use selective vision to see what you want and ignore the rest. Looks like I need to talk/explain to you like I would a third grader.
Salvation is the reward we get for being saved. We never "receive" saved, we "get"saved and then we "receive" salvation because we allowed Christ to save us from ourselves.
Being saved is not the same thing as salvation. Saved refers to being rescued from the power of sin and Satan, while salvation refers to inheriting eternal life.
Modern Christianity wants to blur the line between "saved" and "salvation". By doing so they can claim that one has eternal life if they simply call upon the name of Jesus - for example:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Those who call upon the name of Jesus will be rescued (saved) from the power of sin, but that is just the first step in the process of salvation after belief in Jesus.
First we are delivered from Satan's control so that we can choose to repent, then we must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" - a process which involves testing of our faith.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Grandpa you should be ashamed of yourself for asking such an unbiblically educated question. We never get saved more then once nor can we be saved more then once. We only get one chance to be saved but we can come back to the Lord no matter how many times we fall as long as we repent of our sinful and backslidden lifestyle.
When we fall/backslide we stop the process of working out our salvation and fall back into a sinful bondage of unrepented sin and once more under the control of satan and the things of this world. But if we die while willingly putting ourselves under the control of satan and the things of this world because we turned our back of the Salvation God was offering us as a reward for willingly embracing Christ and His laws and precepts. We do not get the reward offered for those who endure to the end,

WE ONLY GET OUR JUST REWARD IF WE CROSS THE FINISH LINE BUT NOBODY EVER GETS A REWARD FOR GIVING UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RACE AND NEVER CROSSING THE FINISH LINE.
2 Ti 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Any time someone like you start asking dumb questions it tells me that you are running out of options and you have no scripture to prove your point. But you keep going by asking dumb questions because you refuse to believe that you might have been taught wrong and you are looking for a flaw. But I always use scripture to prove what I am saying is true, not a misunderstanding and exactly as God meant for us to interpret His word. Hands down.

I see. You weren't saved then unsaved and then saved again.

You don't believe in Salvation at all.


Salvation for you is what happens if you are good, after you die.


I suggest you read again what you wrote before calling anyone stupid. You said you were saved. Then you said you walked away from God and were not saved, if you died you would not receive eternal life. Then you said you came back to God later. I assume you think you are saved again.

So, for you, you can be in a saved state several times in your life. Walk away, come back. Like a yo-yo. Saved, unsaved, saved again.

I know, it sounds stupid, doesn't it? I agree.

It is the obvious conclusion of your own statements. I could highlight them and re-post them if you want.

 

[massorite]

I see. You weren't saved then unsaved and then saved again.

You don't believe in Salvation at all.


Salvation for you is what happens if you are good, after you die.


I suggest you read again what you wrote before calling anyone stupid. You said you were saved. Then you said you walked away from God and were not saved, if you died you would not receive eternal life. Then you said you came back to God later. I assume you think you are saved again.

So, for you, you can be in a saved state several times in your life. Walk away, come back. Like a yo-yo. Saved, unsaved, saved again.

I know, it sounds stupid, doesn't it? I agree.

It is the obvious conclusion of your own statements. I could highlight them and re-post them if you want.

WOW teaching you like I would a third grader didn't work. Sorry but I can't teach a lower grade level then the third grade. Looks like I made a mistake, your not partly self blinded your fully self blinded. Whether or not I am "saved" is between me and Christ who died for me. Making judgments about my "salvation" is reserved for God only, which you are not. But I do hear the words of satan coming out of your mouth.
Being saved and working out our salvation are two different events. As I said, we only get saved once but we work out our salvation for the rest of our time here on this earth. There is no scripture that says that we can be saved more then once. But there is scripture that says that we can backslide, fall away from God and re commit ourselves to Him. That my blinded friend is called "working out our salvation".

 

[Grandpa]

WOW teaching you like I would a third grader didn't work. Sorry but I can't teach a lower grade level then the third grade. Looks like I made a mistake, your not partly self blinded your fully self blinded. Whether or not I am "saved" is between me and Christ who died for me. Making judgments about my "salvation" is reserved for God only, which you are not. But I do hear the words of satan coming out of your mouth.
Being saved and working out our salvation are two different events. As I said, we only get saved once but we work out our salvation for the rest of our time here on this earth. There is no scripture that says that we can be saved more then once. But there is scripture that says that we can backslide, fall away from God and re commit ourselves to Him. That my blinded friend is called "working out our salvation".

If you think you are saved, but then say if you die you will not receive eternal life, then you are NOT saved.

Its very black and white. Yes or no. You are either saved or not saved. You CAN'T go back and forth between being saved and being unsaved.


Working out your salvation is studying and praying and finding out that Salvation doesn't come from you or your works. Once you find out where your blessing are located there is no reason to remove yourself from that location.

John 6:67-69
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

 

[massorite]

Massorite,
I’m truly happy about your sobering experience. Your change of of heart was a good one. Here is the issue I have with your conclusions. Its about how you feel. God gave us emotions to appreciate things. Its part of who we are, but we are repeatedly warned in Scripture to not allow emotions to guide us. There are countless religions based on fueling ones emotions.

Jesus said, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"

Many of us feel we know what God requires. Anyone can arrange a few verses to reach opposing conclusions. Its not about us, its about God. The sin issue is taken care of. WE are all headed to Hell from birth, no matter how much or how little we sin. The issue is the application of the blood of Christ to our lives. That conversion experience may be filled with emotion, or not. It doesn’t matter how we feel, its how we think. No one can do anything without the brain instigating it.

Our opinion of God and His offer of eternal life through Jesus is the most critical issue any human can face. God knows the heart, that is where our true selves reside. If we truly hear and understand and accept the grace offered by God, He will do the work to restore us through His Holy Spirit. Jesus said we could do nothing without Him. Far too many of us forget that the best we can do is simply agree with God.

Repentance for salvation is a one time thing, repentance to restore fellowship is a life long process and has nothing to do with eternal security. This is the fundamental mistake i see too many Christians make. They think God cleanses them from all past mistakes, but we ourselves must somehow pay or make restitution for each individual sin from that point to death, that they themselves must make atonement for each post-salvation sin. It is impossible for anyone to atone for the smallest of sins, except Jesus.

Jesus said, “It is finished.” He also said that we do not walk alone and that we can carry our own burdens, or stop and let him lift them from us, the choice is ours.

Thank you for your take on the subject at hand and there is some wisdom in what you say. But with respect I disagree with you on the interpretation of Php 2:12
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Working out our salvation takes time and is a process by which we become more like Christ as our days in Him go by. Today I think much more differently then I did the first days after I was saved. Though I will never be sinless as Christ was I do sin less today, I have more control over my thoughts through the power of Christ within me and I react to situations in life more with the mind of Christ then I did in the days after I was saved and the older I get the more like Christ I will get as long as I focus on Him and His word.
Repentance to restore fellowship with God and working out our salvation are the same thing in my opinion. That is a great point though.

 

[kaylagrl]

Rut Roh, 😯 🤯, the topic that has been hashed about here, it seems, more than any other.

You have put a lot of time and effort, so I am taking the time to read your input. 😀 I agree with you on this. It is an ongoing debate that never seems to end.

I will also say this...all verses, every last one, are used to bring His promises to pass. I rest in this as I keep, with the help of the Faithful Shepherd, my heart fixed on the One.

It is good that we keep on Believing, Praise the Lord because our Salvation belongs to Him. He tells us to keep on believing. It makes perfect and simple sense to me.

Do we keep Jesus is the better way for me to look at it. Salvation is secondary to just being with Him. He is the prize, so if He tells us to keep our focus on Him, drawing near. I sure as heaven am going to be intentional and invested because we do that with the ones we sincerely Love, so especially with Him, our number One.

If there are conditions, it too makes sense. They are designed, in my understanding, to test our hearts condition.

Again for His purposes and our well-being.

Sorry, your first line made me giggle...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I suggest you read again what you wrote before calling anyone stupid. You said you were saved. Then you said you walked away from God and were not saved, if you died you would not receive eternal life. Then you said you came back to God later. I assume you think you are saved again.

NO NO NO I never said that falling away meant we have lost our salvation. Please don't put words into my mouth.
I was saved in 1973............

. I was evil and there is no doubt in my mind that if I had died I would not have received eternal life with Christ.

what is it when people make statements then refuse to back up those statements and try to run away from them?

If you did not mean it, Just admit, Hey I made a mistake I did not mean that. But when you flat out deny you said it. You basically back yourself to a wall. and you can't escape. the truth always comes out

 

[Wansvic]

The difference between us is that you believe Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 were instructions to everyone who believes, Jews and Gentiles.

My view is that they were instructions directed only to the Jews who will believe. It was all Jewish still even in Acts 2:38.

I agree that Peter's instructions were initially directed to the Jews present at Pentecost.

However, God also sent Peter to the Gentiles with the same message. They were filled exactly as the Jews had been and obeyed Peter's instruction to be water baptized in Jesus' name. Afterward Paul became the Apostle to the Gentile nations.

Lastly, Peter played a part in the Samaritans compliance to the same message given at Pentecost. After Philip told the Samaritans about Jesus and His name, they submitted to water baptism in Jesus' name. And later Peter and John were sent to them in order that they receive the Holy Ghost.

I would agree that Peter's message pertained only to Jews if in fact there was no evidence of the same message being carried to others as well. However, the message and required compliance was presented, and submitted to, by all three groups. (everyone living is a descendant of one of these groups) This is what convinces me that all of mankind is required to follow the God-given instructions in order to obtain the spiritual rebirth.

 

[notuptome]

I started off 48 yrs ago just as you said. i was taught the doctirne of etetrnal security and the grace doctirnes when i was a kid. this is what confused me for so many years as i studied the bible. I read the 38 passages in the new testament that clearly say that we can forfeit our salvation and compared them to the very few scriptures used to say that we cannot lose it. I was starting from the premise that we could not lose it. It took 10 yrs, and many hours of fasting and prayer to come to the understanding that i have now! It was not until i looked at the problem in the reverse that all of the peices came into place! you have to start from the knowledge that you can forfeit your salvation and then you can come to properly understand the other verses. Thats why is start off with a careful study of the 38 passages that tell us that a true christian can forfeit their salvation before i do just as careful study of the texts used for the eternal security doctrine. this is truly a right division of the word of God! I could never have put this together without the direction and help of the Holy Spirit!

I'll make it simple for you. If you don't have eternal security then you ain't secure. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of the faith needed in salvation. No other faith will do and Jesus faith never changes.

I would suggest that you go back and fast for another 10 years but you would miss the point.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

The scripture you gave is worthless to the subject matter at hand.

You simply do not comprehend.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Wansvic]

The difference between us is that you believe Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 were instructions to everyone who believes, Jews and Gentiles.

My view is that they were instructions directed only to the Jews who will believe. It was all Jewish still even in Acts 2:38.

In addition to my last response, (post 187) consider also the fact that the gospel message was to be given to the Jew FIRST and then the Gentile. Samaritans were actually half-Jew and half-Gentile. Interestingly the Samaritans received Peter's initial message from Philip and complied prior to the Gentiles receiving it. Something I have pondered, but am not sure of, is whether the Samaritans Jewish heritage took precedence and therefore the message had to be given to them prior to the Gentiles. Any thoughts?

 

[Sipsey]

Thank you for your take on the subject at hand and there is some wisdom in what you say. But with respect I disagree with you on the interpretation of Php 2:12
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Working out our salvation takes time and is a process by which we become more like Christ as our days in Him go by. Today I think much more differently then I did the first days after I was saved. Though I will never be sinless as Christ was I do sin less today, I have more control over my thoughts through the power of Christ within me and I react to situations in life more with the mind of Christ then I did in the days after I was saved and the older I get the more like Christ I will get as long as I focus on Him and His word.
Repentance to restore fellowship with God and working out our salvation are the same thing in my opinion. That is a great point though.

To see the context of Php 2:12 you have to back up to 2:1- seeing a “therefore” one must back into chapter 1 and then it becomes as clear as blue sky.

It’s speaking of taking the salvation that has been gifted to you and getting out there and demonstrating to the lost world what being made alive with Christ, looks like. It simply means to get busy sharing the Gospel, not being self-focused.

 

[Guojing]

In addition to my last response, (post 187) consider also the fact that the gospel message was to be given to the Jew FIRST and then the Gentile. Samaritans were actually half-Jew and half-Gentile. Interestingly the Samaritans received Peter's initial message from Philip and complied prior to the Gentiles receiving it. Something I have pondered, but am not sure of, is whether the Samaritans Jewish heritage took precedence and therefore the message had to be given to them prior to the Gentiles. Any thoughts?

The OT timetable was that Israel is to be saved first by the gospel of the kingdom, as I have stated. Jesus also reminded them that in Matthew 10:5

 

[massorite]

To see the context of Php 2:12 you have to back up to 2:1- seeing a “therefore” one must back into chapter 1 and then it becomes as clear as blue sky.

It’s speaking of taking the salvation that has been gifted to you and getting out there and demonstrating to the lost world what being made alive with Christ, looks like. It simply means to get busy sharing the Gospel, not being self-focused.

Ok so if you have been fallowing the conversation you have read where I said I pick apart every work of every verse that I both post and those verses that get posted in any conversation I am having on this site. Mostly because I am adamant about proper and correct interpretation of the Word Of God. I am very much aware that I am not perfect and I do make mistakes in my efforts to interpret scripture correctly as God intended. So to make sure and to give you the benefit of the doubt I re read Php. ch.1 and ch. 2.
Then I looked up the word "work" as in "work out our salvation" and I am exactly correct in my interpretation of Php. 2:12 and according to what my Thayer's Greek English Lexicon which uses the Strong's numbering system and is in line with the Mr Strong's interpretation of every word in the Bible but goes more in depth into the Greek Language, the word "work" in Php 2:12 is talking about "to do that from which something results I.E. to make every effort to obtain salvation"
So it boils down to obedience. The way we are commanded to work out our salvation is to preach the Gospel and to live a life of integrity, to be blameless and to be as Christ like as we can until death. The process of working out our salvation begins the minute we give ourselves over to Christ and ends when we die. Proof that we do not get our reward unless we complete the working out of our salvation is in 2 Ti 4:6-8
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
By the words of Paul in verses 6-8 prove that the process of working out our salvation is completed only at the moment the breath of life leaves our body when we exhale for the last time. Paul's declaration that he has finished the race only comes out of his mouth when he knows he is about to die in the name of Christ and according to what Paul says in verse 8 we don't even get our crown of righteousness until after we die which means that if we don't cross that finish line we will not get the reward that was promised to us the minute we were saved.

 

[Sipsey]

Jn:28-29 Then they said to Him (Jesus), “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[Guojing]

Jn:28-29 Then they said to Him (Jesus), “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So many people use this out of its context. They read Paul's mystery grace revelation into it when that was not the intention of what Jesus was saying above.

John wrote his gospel as a record of the 8 signs that Jesus performed in order for Jews to believe that he is their promised Messiah (John 20:30-31).

In that record, the signs are seen as works of God. There are at least two times the John account explains that.

John 10:
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 14
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Once you understand what John was trying to do in his gospel, this verse you quoted is not saying we are trying to make it say, after we read Paul's revelation of the mystery.

Jesus was not saying to "believe in his death burial and resurrection and that is all you need to do to be saved." He was telling the Jews to believe in the signs, that he is their promised Messiah. The Jews, and Jesus were always under the Law of Moses pre-cruxifiction, and that Law must still be kept.

 

[Sipsey]

So many people use this out of its context. They read Paul's mystery grace revelation into it when that was not the intention of what Jesus was saying above.

John wrote his gospel as a record of the 8 signs that Jesus performed in order for Jews to believe that he is their promised Messiah (John 20:30-31).

In that record, the signs are seen as works of God. There are at least two times the John account explains that.

John 10:
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 14
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Once you understand what John was trying to do in his gospel, this verse you quoted is not saying we are trying to make it say, after we read Paul's revelation of the mystery.

Jesus was not saying to "believe in his death burial and resurrection and that is all you need to do to be saved." He was telling the Jews to believe in the signs, that he is their promised Messiah. The Jews, and Jesus were always under the Law of Moses pre-cruxifiction, and that Law must still be kept.

His words can be parsed to emphasize various aspects of its full meaning. But the fact remains, until one believes that Jesus is who He says He is, there is no salvation for Jew or Gentile. No one I know say just believe and go on with your life. Belief is the basis and motivation for anything done, that counts.

I stand by the application of those words to anyone that desires forgiveness, purpose and the power to live for God.

All of Scripture has one primary meaning, but multiple applications. If we narrow our translation or application to only the audience in each verse, we could all ignore much of Scripture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So many people use this out of its context. They read Paul's mystery grace revelation into it when that was not the intention of what Jesus was saying above.

John wrote his gospel as a record of the 8 signs that Jesus performed in order for Jews to believe that he is their promised Messiah (John 20:30-31).

In that record, the signs are seen as works of God. There are at least two times the John account explains that.

John 10:
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 14
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Once you understand what John was trying to do in his gospel, this verse you quoted is not saying we are trying to make it say, after we read Paul's revelation of the mystery.

Jesus was not saying to "believe in his death burial and resurrection and that is all you need to do to be saved." He was telling the Jews to believe in the signs, that he is their promised Messiah. The Jews, and Jesus were always under the Law of Moses pre-cruxifiction, and that Law must still be kept.

Wow.

Well one thing I know. You do not understand John at all

 

[Guojing]

Wow.

Well one thing I know. You do not understand John at all

If you have a different view, you are welcome to explain it.

 

[Guojing]

His words can be parsed to emphasize various aspects of its full meaning. But the fact remains, until one believes that Jesus is who He says He is, there is no salvation for Jew or Gentile. No one I know say just believe and go on with your life. Belief is the basis and motivation for anything done, that counts.

I stand by the application of those words to anyone that desires forgiveness, purpose and the power to live for God.

All of Scripture has one primary meaning, but multiple applications. If we narrow our translation or application to only the audience in each verse, we could all ignore much of Scripture.

So do you agree that the Law of Moses was still required of Jews then, when Jesus said that?

Anyway, Jesus's first coming in the flesh was strictly to the Jews (Romans 15:8). He forbidded the 12 to preach the gospel of the kingdom to the gentiles (Matthew 10:5).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you have a different view, you are welcome to explain it.

I think people have been explaining it to you for a few months now..

as have I in the past.. No desire to go there again.