Eternal security? or loss of salvation? what does the bible really say on these two subjects!
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The fact of the matter is that only the Promise of Agape Love comes with no strings or conditions attached. But every other Promise that God has ever given has conditions attached to the fulfillment of the Promises of God, and yes even the promise of eternal salvation has conditions attached to it. That is why the Word of God gives example and warnings of what will happen to those crash and burn from their faith and commitment to God and it can happen.
Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into myur house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
Only Christ can cause a demon to come out of a person and as we can see from Mat. 12 : 43-44 that even after a demon has been cast out of a person a demon can not only re-inhabit that host but the demon can bring seven more evil to possess that person.
But demons can only come in and inhabit a person is a willing host.
John 3:36 ESV
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
The key word here is "obey" . If we have recieved salvation but do not obey the will of God in our walk, we will not recieve our just reward. But we will be left behind here on the earth to suffer the Wrath of God because of our disobedience.
Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
The above verses are written to the church of Ephesus and as we can see the church has fallen away from there first love which should always be Christ. In Revelation 2:2-3 Christ is recognizing the good works of the church but in verses 4 Christ expresses His discontent with the church and in verse 5 Christ warns them to repent or He will take away their light/candlestick that shines in the midst of darkness and the church will be no better then the evil darkness surrounding them. The same applies to individuals as will.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
We have the choice to choose and we can choose to walk away from God even after we have received our salvation. Gal 4:9 is proof of that. Salvation is about among other things our freedom from the bondage of a life of un repented sin.
So the answer is YES we can loose our salvation if we choose to willingly walk away from God and back into a life of un repented sin.
The question is can our relationship with Christ be restored after falling back into a life of un repended sin? The answer is always YES we can if we choose once again to remove ourselves from that life of un repented sin and back into an obedient and loving relationship with Christ. But if we die while living in a state of un repented sin we will suffer the consequences of our bad choices and going to heaven will not be among the options for those who die in a back slidden state.
One either understands the term grace, or not. My take is that if the fundamental concept of ”grace” is not understood, then it leads to the debate we see here, it is grace, BUT, it is conditional grace.
If man cannot instigate the salvation of his own soul, he surely cannot maintain it. If one thinks otherwise then they place themselves equal with God.
Massorite, I suggest you go back and really study the covenant God made with Abraham, the one that depends on God. God doesn’t need our assistance, He is the ultimate teacher, if we will only listen.
If man cannot instigate the salvation of his own soul, he surely cannot maintain it. If one thinks otherwise then they place themselves equal with God.
Massorite, I suggest you go back and really study the covenant God made with Abraham, the one that depends on God. God doesn’t need our assistance, He is the ultimate teacher, if we will only listen.
I think that Massorite has his theological wagon wheel stuck in the rut of works/legalism.
Christ is not describing born again Christians here.
He is describing Pharisees and those who think that their own work is what makes them stand before God.
When people are working out their own salvation they will make some mistakes.
This does not mean that God will forsake them for those mistakes.
Quite the opposite.
Galatians 4:9 is NOT proof of someone losing Salvation. It is proof of someone who has not been saved making a wrong turn before Salvation.
They do not understand Salvation or the Work of God. If they did, they couldn't/wouldn't turn back to weak and beggarly elements.
I have found that In all the time I have been here on CC (Christian chat) I haven't seen very many change their mind.You will see the same people argue the same points and even myself am guilty,so then I shouldn't get offended when, like you said ,no matter the proof the person won't take to It but that's the beauty of CC everyone has the right to post their thoughts as long as It's within the rules.
With a batting average like that I don't think that massorite is going to make the big leagues any time soon.
(John 3:36) Yes I agree.
IMO the context indicates that this term must relate to the foregoing assertion to "believe", which elsewhere is a command to believe. So the scope of what is to be obeyed here is thusly limited.
Throwing everything and anything into the bucket of obey is fauty exegesis.
After scanning page one, no need to go any further......Jesus saves eternally and the GIFTS (PLURAL) of God are IRREVOCABLE......and he does not give TEMPORAL LIFE based upon what we do or don't do after being saved by faith.
I also see the normal self saving, self faith maintaing, salvation losers that devalue Jesus on a regular basis have taken hold in this thread like seed ticks......
My bible is clear...whatosever GOD DOES, IT IS EVERLASTING and he does this so men may fear before him......He saves ETERNALLY by the faith HE BEGINS, FINISHES AND COMPLETES IN US and we are told to be CONFIDENT OF THIS VERY THING-->He that began a good work in you WILL FINISH IT UNTO THE DAY OF CHRIST (Resurrection)
He does not forsake or leave us and even if we BECOME FAITHLESS (AFTER FAITH) HE WILL ABIDE FAITHFUL TO HIS PROMISES TO FINISH AND COMPLETE his good work in us Because HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF <- HIS FAITH AND RIGHTEOUSNESS PUT TO OUR ACCOUNT DUE TO FAITH.....!!!!!!
I also see the normal self saving, self faith maintaing, salvation losers that devalue Jesus on a regular basis have taken hold in this thread like seed ticks......
My bible is clear...whatosever GOD DOES, IT IS EVERLASTING and he does this so men may fear before him......He saves ETERNALLY by the faith HE BEGINS, FINISHES AND COMPLETES IN US and we are told to be CONFIDENT OF THIS VERY THING-->He that began a good work in you WILL FINISH IT UNTO THE DAY OF CHRIST (Resurrection)
He does not forsake or leave us and even if we BECOME FAITHLESS (AFTER FAITH) HE WILL ABIDE FAITHFUL TO HIS PROMISES TO FINISH AND COMPLETE his good work in us Because HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF <- HIS FAITH AND RIGHTEOUSNESS PUT TO OUR ACCOUNT DUE TO FAITH.....!!!!!!
Sorry but I consider all of your arguments to be garbage.
Christ is not describing born again Christians here.
He is describing Pharisees and those who think that their own work is what makes them stand before God.
The return of an unclean spirit was a parable and there is no scriptural proof that Christ was talking about a demon being cast out of or leaving a Pharisee. Put some scripture where your mouth is because assumptions mean nothing.
In Mat 12:43 the word "GONE" (Thayer's Greek/English Lexicon #1831) is speaking of a demon being cast out or expelled from a body they have possesed and there is not one single example of a demon being cast out in the Old Testament because no one had that kind of power over demonic possession until Christ so I doubt very much that the Pharisees even knew it was possible to cast out a demon. Christ was talking to those who knew that Christ had the power to cast out demons and was giving an example of what could happen if whom ever the demon was cast out from turned back from being delivered from bondage and embraces those demonic forces once again. In verse 44 a house that has been "SWEPT" (Thayer's Greek/English Lexicon #4980) is a clean and a purified house, empty of all evil. Only Christ can do that.
The word "GARNISHED" (Thayer's Greek/English Lexicon #2885) is speaking of Adorning with ornaments IE "making the inside of that house beautiful" and only Christ can do that and it is only after being delivered from the bondage's of demon possession and the things of this world through Christ can a person be saved and the inside of that person be beautified.
In Gal. 4:9 the word "KNOWN" (Thayer's Greek/English Lexicon #1097) is speaking of an intimate relationship with God and only through salvation can a person inter into an intimate relationship with God because with out salvation there is no chance of having any kind of relationship with God let alone an intimate one.
So yes without a doubt Gal 4:9 is speaking of a saved person who has an intimate relationship with God and indeed for whatever reason turns from that intimate relationship with God and once again embraces the bondage's of this world that they were delivered from when that were saved and began that relationship with God and it is ONLY AFTER WE ARE SAVED DOES GOD BEGIN TO HAVE AN INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP WITH US.
The verse is really quit clear about this which means we can loose our salvation by making bad choices and turning from God and dying while living a back slidden life of un repented sin.
Actually that passage is talking about self reformation. Many folks make resolutions to live better but always fail because they do so in their strength and have not the Holy Spirit to guide and strengthen them.
How many stories of foxhole conversions have been told over the generations? Men who swear that if God delivers them from the threat of death they will live right from that time forward. Soon as the danger has passed they go right back to where they were and become even worse.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Amen! Empty promises and moral self-reformation is not a substitute for regeneration.
Eternal deliverance is the work of God (by God's sovereign grace, without the help of man). Deliverances that we receive here in this world is by the work of man, being rewarded by God while here on earth, for following his instructions (working out your own salvation) [deliverance], as to how he wants us to live our lives as we sojourn here on earth. "Salvation" according to Greek = deliverance.
Assumptions mean nothing.
And yet you would assume through that whole paragraph.
You assume that a demon COULD NEVER be cast out of a person until Christ.
I don't know why a person would make that assumption. Unless they were trying to push their silly theories of working for salvation and then failing and losing that salvation.
Why don't you assume that people COULD cast out demons but without the Holy Spirit and Christ, after that demon left then other demons, even worse than the one before would come in and reside???
With Christ and the Holy Spirit inside their house how could more demons come in, or more importantly, why would they want to?
And then once Christ and the Holy Spirit expel a demon from the house why would they then abandon that house knowing what is going to happen to it?
You have to assume a lot of silly things of Christ and the Holy Spirit in order to get to the conclusions you make.
When it comes to assumptions I always give GOD the benefit of the doubt, because I know He is Good.
Maybe you should try that once and see if it changes your mind...
Just think about the question Paul is asking in Galatians 4:9
He's not saying these people are saved and are in danger of losing their salvation.
He's saying how is it possible that after knowing God you prefer to not know Him but rather would go back to the weak and beggarly elements?
It is a question Paul is asking. Not a statement of fact.
Paul is inferring that if a person DOES go to the weak and beggarly elements they don't know God.
How can you pick out words to try to understand and then miss the WHOLE concept of what is being relayed? Unless you are trying to miss the whole concept in order to push your mis-guided theories.
Let's not assume. Let's find scripture that expressly says "You were saved but now you stopped (insert your favorite legalistic stuff here) and now you are un-saved".
Revelations 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
If we ASSUME that these scriptures are talking about how a person can lose salvation then you SHOULD be able to see how that ASSUMPTION then causes the bible to CONTRADICT ITS OWN SELF.
If you don't immediately see it I can point it out for you. But I have faith in you....
Working out your own salvation is coming to the understanding of WHO blesses you and the reasons for being blessed.
Its about coming to see what is revealed in that YOU don't deserve Salvation, no matter how good you think you are. YOU don't deserve to STAY SAVED no matter how much better you are than before. YOU are undeserving because of anything intrinsically belonging to YOU.
You are Saved because of Christ. You stay saved because of Christ.
That is working out your own Salvation.
Being rewarded by God for following His Instructions...
Good one.You are rewarded by God by coming to the conclusion that the only way to be rewarded by God is to come to Him and ask. You can never deserve Gods Blessing because of how well you think you follow instructions.
Otherwise, Christ could have just left some more instructions and then sailed off to Heaven. He would not have had to suffer or die.
Sa wing and a miss. Hey battER.
Massorite goes 0-16 for the season with the prospect of making it to the Big League looking pretty slim.
The only way in for masorite now is to call on some sort of Saviour. Can he abandon his own way and find this New Way?
People who strike out seem to like to continue to strike out. Like its their job. No un-drafted rookies make it into this League...
Sorry Grandpa but I didn't assume anything. I gave you the scriptures and the intimate meaning of certain words within those verses as a bases for what I believe and I gave you the name of the Lexicon and the number where you can find the proof and truly understand what the Word of God is saying.Assumptions mean nothing.
And yet you would assume through that whole paragraph.
You assume that a demon COULD NEVER be cast out of a person until Christ.
I don't know why a person would make that assumption. Unless they were trying to push their silly theories of working for salvation and then failing and losing that salvation.
Why don't you assume that people COULD cast out demons but without the Holy Spirit and Christ, after that demon left then other demons, even worse than the one before would come in and reside???
With Christ and the Holy Spirit inside their house how could more demons come in, or more importantly, why would they want to?
And then once Christ and the Holy Spirit expel a demon from the house why would they then abandon that house knowing what is going to happen to it?
You have to assume a lot of silly things of Christ and the Holy Spirit in order to get to the conclusions you make.
When it comes to assumptions I always give GOD the benefit of the doubt, because I know He is Good.
Maybe you should try that once and see if it changes your mind...
Just think about the question Paul is asking in Galatians 4:9
He's not saying these people are saved and are in danger of losing their salvation.
He's saying how is it possible that after knowing God you prefer to not know Him but rather would go back to the weak and beggarly elements?
It is a question Paul is asking. Not a statement of fact.
Paul is inferring that if a person DOES go to the weak and beggarly elements they don't know God.
How can you pick out words to try to understand and then miss the WHOLE concept of what is being relayed? Unless you are trying to miss the whole concept in order to push your mis-guided theories.
Let's not assume. Let's find scripture that expressly says "You were saved but now you stopped (insert your favorite legalistic stuff here) and now you are un-saved".
Revelations 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
If we ASSUME that these scriptures are talking about how a person can lose salvation then you SHOULD be able to see how that ASSUMPTION then causes the bible to CONTRADICT ITS OWN SELF.
If you don't immediately see it I can point it out for you. But I have faith in you....
Why don't you assume that people COULD cast out demons but without the Holy Spirit and Christ, after that demon left then other demons, even worse than the one before would come in and reside???
Here is how I live. If it is not written in the Word of God then it is not true, it does not exist, it is a lie from the pits of hell. So I never assume anything about scripture, it either says it or it doesn't and if it is not written on the bible then it didn't happen or the Bible is not speaking of it.
So after doing some research there is not one example of a demon being cast out of any soul spoken of in the Old Testament.
Paul is inferring that if a person DOES go to the weak and beggarly elements they don't know God.
Nice try Granpa but Paul is asking those folks "After knowing God HOW could you have turned back to the weak and beggarly elements". That word"whereunto" is the same as saying "to which" you desire again to be in bondage.
Do the research and get your facts striaght because Gal 4:9 is asking folks who have already been saved and delivered from bondage, WHY they would turn from Christ and willingly go back into bondage.
How can you pick out words to try to understand and then miss the WHOLE concept of what is being relayed? Unless you are trying to miss the whole concept in order to push your mis-guided theories.
I never pick out words to suit my purpose. Any time I am looking for a true understanding of a verse I research and look up EVERY SINGLE WORD IN THAT VERSE and in the verses before and after the verse in question and any verse you might quote I do the same thing. I pick it apart word by word to see if what you are saying the says is true or not.
Hebrew 6:4-6! Thank you for quoting those verses because verse 6 proves that a saved person who has begun a relationship with God can turn from God. Verse 6 is very clear about that.
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
The words "If they shall fall away" absolutely show us that we can indeed walk away from Gd even after being truly saved.
If we ASSUME that these scriptures are talking about how a person can lose salvation then you SHOULD be able to see how that ASSUMPTION then causes the bible to CONTRADICT ITS OWN SELF.
Assumeing anything about the Word of God is a very bad practice when researching and learning about the word of God and since I do my research the way I do it there is no room for any assumptions at all and Gal 4:9 says exactly what my research has shown me and there are no Biblical contradictions here. Satan can't take away our salvation but we can choose to give it away of our own free will.
I agree with the foxhole conversions. America did just that right after 911, but it didn't take long before America forgot how the evil of Islam reached out and touched us.
But I can't agree with what you think Gal 4:9 is speaking of.