Not By Works

[EleventhHour]

Are you in an epic struggle with sin, or have you rationalized it and accepted it in the name of grace?

Let me repeat..............

Our deeds never determined our destiny and to preach "grace" ........ is not to sanction sin ..........but to settle one's trust in the Saviour.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Point out my apparent contradictions and I'll clear up your misunderstanding for you.

You need to go back a couple of pages to see where you went off the rails - I ain't a worker like you - you do the work.

 

[EleventhHour]

Maybe you could give us the chapters and verses to establish this unknown gem of yours.

Just terrible typology.

I have never heard anything like this before in the way he is stating it.
Jesus was not cut off.

 

[Judges1318]

This is how you try to twist the discussion, regardless of types you rejected what I posted about Moses not entering the promised land because of disobedience, yet is still saved.

You are totally dishonest.

Oh, I see what you're driving at,
Moses NEVER went back to Egypt.
He never even thought about it.
(But Hebrews affirms he could of if he wanted to).
You can't use him to prove you can go back to unbelief and still be saved.
But you can use him as a useful illustration of Jesus' ministry in leading God's people out of the slavery of sin.

 

[Judges1318]

Just terrible typology.

I have never heard anything like this before in the way he is stating it.
Jesus was not cut off.

Oh, boy.....<face palm>.

Isaiah 52-53!

 

[Judges1318]

Let me repeat..............

Our deeds never determined our destiny and to preach "grace" ........ is not to sanction sin ..........but to settle one's trust in the Saviour.

Works show if you have the grace of God in salvation in your life or not.
And defensiveness about this fact shows you're probably dealing with a non-believer. That is, someone who has yet to come to the end of themselves and ready to receive God's transforming power.

 

[EleventhHour]

Oh, boy.....<face palm>.

Isaiah 52-53!

For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[f]

Yes we all know Jesus died.
I do not trust a single word you teach... I will wait on those I trust to before I believe a word you say.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Oh, I see what you're driving at,
Moses NEVER went back to Egypt.
He never even thought about it.
(But Hebrews affirms he could of if he wanted to).
You can't use him to prove you can go back to unbelief and still be saved.

Where did I say Moses wanted to go back to Egypt. Now you are mixing up Abraham with Moses. Good mixegesis.

You are just tripping over your small feet in desperation.

 

[Judges1318]

For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[f]

Yes we all know Jesus died.
I do not trust a single word you teach... I will wait on those I trust to before I believe a word you say.

No so terrible typology after all.

 

[EleventhHour]

No so terrible typology after all.

I rather stick with scripture.

John 1. 17. The Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

 

[BillG]

By the way, I got justified exactly the way the tax collector got justified. Exactly that way.
That's why it's one of my favorite passages of scripture.

'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God."
Luke 18:13-14

The difference between me and the Freegracer (generally speaking) is I came to God not only to be forgiven but to be changed.
Problematic 'Christians' in the church came to God to get a pass on sin, not to be changed from what and who they are.
For as I say, it's one's view on sin that helps me determine if I can consider a person genuinely saved or not.

slight problem with the verse you quote and the words you follow with.

The sinner came to Jesus and asked for mercy/forgiveness of sins.

Nothing mentioning he did this and that he wanted to be changed.

The change is as a result of forgiveness.

That's where discipleship comes in.

 

[Judges1318]

View attachment 216117

Where did I say Moses wanted to go back to Egypt. Now you are mixing up Abraham with Moses. Good mixegesis.

You are just tripping over your small feet in desperation.

I said it, not you. Pay attention!
It shows us that Moses not entering in but still being saved has nothing to do with osas.
Now if he had gone back to Egypt you'd have a potential argument to make.
But as it is, he never denied the Promise for there to be any basis upon which to make an osas claim.

 

[azamzimtoti]

I said it, not you. Pay attention!
It shows us that Moses not entering in but still being saved has nothing to do with osas.
Now if he had gone back to Egypt you'd have a potential argument to make.
But as it is, he never denied the Promise for there to be any basis upon which to make an osas claim.

You are the one not paying attention, Moses didn't enter the promised land because of disobedience yet he was still saved, there is nothing in the Moses account or Hebrews that stated Moses even thought of going "back" to Egypt.

You are attempting to create a straw-man argument that is not working.

 

[BillG]

As you probably know, Moses was raised up and appointed by God to lead His people out of the slavery and bondage of Egypt.
He is a type and shadow of how Jesus was raised up and appointed by God to lead His people out of the slavery and bondage of sin.
Along the way, Moses was cut off from entering into the inheritance because of the sin of the people.
They go in while Moses gets cut off.
This is a picture for us of how Jesus was also cut off because of our sin.
He got cut off while we who sinned enter in.

Remember, Moses is a picture of the reality, Christ.
Don't overthink it and ruin this wonderful glimpse into the penalty Christ endured because of us who sinned.
Watch, some will.

I thought Moses was not allowed to enter because

Numbers 20:12-13
12 But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust me enough to demonstrate my holiness to the people of Israel, you will not lead them into the land I am giving them!”

13 This place was known as the waters of Meribah (which means “arguing”) because there the people of Israel argued with the Lord, and there he demonstrated his holiness among them.

Verse 12.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Oh, boy.....<face palm>.

Isaiah 52-53!

The type in Isaiah is not being "cutoff", the type/antitype is sacrificial offering.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

Moses, David, and Paul did not commit those sins again after repentance of those sins. If fact, Moses’ act doesn’t seem to be condemned explicitly, nor Paul’s. Seems to me because these acts were committed before an encounter with God (Moses - before the burning bush experience; Paul - before the Damascus experience).

The OSAS’ers would be correct in using these men if they continued in their sinning after being dealt with by God.

(Mockers - Don’t bother responding; At this point I’m not posting for your sake, just for the sake of the honest reader).

 

[walknlight]

No, my doctrine does not say you can sin all you want and you will remain saved no matter what.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

 

[BillG]

Moses, David, and Paul did not commit those sins again after repentance of those sins. If fact, Moses’ act doesn’t seem to be condemned explicitly, nor Paul’s. Seems to me because these acts were committed before an encounter with God (Moses - before the burning bush experience; Paul - before the Damascus experience).

The OSAS’ers would be correct in using these men if they continued in their sinning after being dealt with by God.

(Mockers - Don’t bother responding; At this point I’m not posting for your sake, just for the sake of the honest reader).

Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land, not because of murder that I can see. Was he still saved? If so why so?

David commited a myriad of sins, which under the law he should have been put to death. It seems he did not fully learn not to sin yet still did.

Was he still saved? If so why so?

 

[walknlight]

Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land, not because of murder that I can see.

Moses was told to speak to the Rock, instead he struck the Rock.
In another incident Yahweh was going to kill Moses for disobidience in circumcision...

Was he saved?

Matt 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Matt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Matt 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

David commited a myriad of sins, which under the law he should have been put to death. It seems he did not fully learn not to sin yet still did.

Agreed! King David did some stuff....

God Bless!!

 

[BillG]

Moses was told to speak to the Rock, instead he struck the Rock.
In another incident Yahweh was going to kill Moses for disobidience in circumcision...

Was he saved?

Matt 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Matt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Matt 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.



Agreed! King David did some stuff....

God Bless!!

just read the verses concerning Moses and circumcision.
I forgot about that, and yes the rock situation is correct as well.

We know the answer I was questioning someone to see what they thought.

If we look through the OT/NT we see the greats of faith stumble and stumble yet get back up, call out to God.