Catholicism vs Protestantism

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Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Right, and that's why people usually go on to say that the Jews are wrong about Jesus.

Maybe talking about this Bible passage can help us understand each other better
Romans 10: 1 Brothers, my heart's desire and my prayer to God is for Israel, that they may be saved. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

Two things we can see right off:
It is possible to have a zeal for the true God and not be saved.
It is possible to have a zeal for the true God and reject Jesus.

In your mind, how are those things possible?
Especially the second one, how is it possible to reject Jesus and at the same time have a zeal for the true God?
Not only 2 posibility
They may zeal for wrong god. True god not attack jesus
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
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Good observation!
One thing I noticed is that in the vision that Paul has it is about which direction he should go on his missionary trip. It is not about doctrine.

When it is about doctrine, something that the whole church is going to have a unified teaching about, the holy Spirit speaks to the individuals as they are gathered in the council. Or at least that's when the conclusion is reached.

We also see that there were some people there who would also have had the holy Spirit leading them, because they were believers. But what those believers say is the correct teaching on the issue is not the teaching the council adopts.

Once the council adopts the decision, it looks like the entire church then follows that teaching. This maintains unity in the body of Christ, the entire body accepting the same teaching.

1 Corinthians 1: 10 Now I beg you, brothers, through the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Peter had a vision individually about doctrine and Paul say he learn from Holy spirit


Acts 10

King James Version


10 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7 And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
8 And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.
9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.I

The doctrine that adopted by council may not from God, example
I don't believe doctrine salvation by catholic alone
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
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When you say there is a minimum requirement for worshiping God, are you thinking of a particular scripture?
if you are thinking of the verse about Jesus is the only way to God, what leads you to believe that worshipping God is the same thing as getting to the father?
Yep, john 3:16, etc I am not remember all but a lot
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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This video is a testimony from ex Muslim

This may convince every body tha Muslim not worship Christian god

I will do short translation in English

It start when she want to convert her Christian boy friend to Muslim. After some discussion she have a dream, in her dream she saw her boy friend chat her, and she fell terrible, emotion, angry, then in her dream she say that she will come to the Lord Jesus. It strange, she was Muslim, why she come to Jesus. But after that she feel peace that never happen before, wake up from the dream she start to investigate about who is jesus, she went to church for awhile and she feel it is peace full

Finally she told her mom about her plan to be Baptist, her mom cry and her family ask imam to do rupiah (Muslim ritual,to cast demon Jesus out)

How true God hate jesus and think Jesus as demon?

Ccc841 must consider this ritual before say Muslim worship Christian god


 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Not only 2 posibility
They may zeal for wrong god. True god not attack jesus
Well, looking at this verse

Romans 10: 1 Brothers, my heart's desire and my prayer to God is for Israel, that they may be saved. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

Do you agree that Paul is talking about Israel, Jews?

Do you agree that Paul is talking about having a zeal for the true God? Or do you think Paul is saying they have a zeal for a false god?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Peter had a vision individually about doctrine and Paul say he learn from Holy spirit
Yes, Paul says that he received the gospel directly from God.
Galatians 1: 11 But I make known to you, brothers, concerning the Good News which was preached by me, that it is not according to man. 12 For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came to me through revelation of Jesus Christ.

The book of Acts tends to present a different version of things, a different slant.
People who tend to be Protestant tend to focus on Paul's letters. People who tend to be Catholic or Eastern Orthodox tend to focus on the gospels or the letters of Peter and James.

But notice that later in Galatians Paul says that he visits the apostles in Jerusalem, and they essentially give him a commission to preach the gospel that he had received personally. At least that's one way of looking at it.

Acts 10

King James Version
10 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7 And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
8 And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.
9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.I
Is Peter preaching something new, or taking the same gospel to a different group of people? It looks like a matter of interpretation to me.
I see that the spirit didn't stop with just telling Peter something inside his mind. He goes on to bring about very clear physical signs.

Acts 10: 17 Now while Peter was very perplexed in himself what the vision which he had seen might mean, behold, the men who were sent by Cornelius, having made inquiry for Simon's house, stood before the gate, 18 and called and asked whether Simon, who was surnamed Peter, was lodging there. 19 While Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men seek you. 20 But arise, get down, and go with them, doubting nothing; for I have sent them."

Including the sign of tongues
Acts 10: 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who heard the word.

Then when Peter returns
Acts 11: 2 When Peter had come up to Jerusalem, those who were of the circumcision contended with him.

He doesn't just tell them that the holy Spirit told him to go, he goes on to talk about the signs that he saw while he was there.

17 If then God gave to them the same gift as us, when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I, that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life!"

So sure, if someone says they have received a revelation from the holy Spirit and that claim is then backed up by amazing signs, then that's something worth considering!
The doctrine that adopted by council may not from God, example
I don't believe doctrine salvation by catholic alone
Sure, I can understand the problems with the group approach to interpreting scripture.
Suppose we say the God intends everyone to read the Bible for themselves, and he will give them the correct interpretation as they read.
How did that work when most people didn't have Bibles?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Yep, john 3:16, etc I am not remember all but a lot
John 3: 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

I don't see the word
worship
in the passage.

In my opinion, worshipping the true God does not mean that a person is saved or that they are not condemned.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
This video is a testimony from ex Muslim

This may convince every body tha Muslim not worship Christian god

I will do short translation in English

It start when she want to convert her Christian boy friend to Muslim. After some discussion she have a dream, in her dream she saw her boy friend chat her, and she fell terrible, emotion, angry, then in her dream she say that she will come to the Lord Jesus. It strange, she was Muslim, why she come to Jesus. But after that she feel peace that never happen before, wake up from the dream she start to investigate about who is jesus, she went to church for awhile and she feel it is peace full

Finally she told her mom about her plan to be Baptist, her mom cry and her family ask imam to do rupiah (Muslim ritual,to cast demon Jesus out)

How true God hate jesus and think Jesus as demon?

Ccc841 must consider this ritual before say Muslim worship Christian god


I don't doubt that Muslims do lots of evil things!

Jews have a zeal for the true God, yet they too are capable of great evil!
Romans 10: 3 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they didn't subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Well, looking at this verse

Romans 10: 1 Brothers, my heart's desire and my prayer to God is for Israel, that they may be saved. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

Do you agree that Paul is talking about Israel, Jews?

Do you agree that Paul is talking about having a zeal for the true God? Or do you think Paul is saying they have a zeal for a false god?
1. yes I agree Paul talking about Israel Jews
2. No, true god not teach to reject Jesus. Israel zeal for God of their imagination. God that help them free from Rome, like Samson free them from ,Philistine.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
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John 3: 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

I don't see the word
worship
in the passage.

In my opinion, worshipping the true God does not mean that a person is saved or that they are not condemned.
Like I say, worship god doesn't mean reject God. How you worship god and reject god in the same time

Jesus is God
There for reject Jesus = reject god
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I don't doubt that Muslims do lots of evil things!

Jews have a zeal for the true God, yet they too are capable of great evil!
Romans 10: 3 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they didn't subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
Establish their own righteousness, mean they make themselves god
They didn't subject to the righteousness of God.

So they don't have a zeal for true god.

Like Muslim, have a zeal for their Quran god, not true god

True god not reject Jesus because Jesus is God
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
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I don't doubt that Muslims do lots of evil things!

Jews have a zeal for the true God, yet they too are capable of great evil!
Romans 10: 3 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they didn't subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

John 4:24

King James Version


24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Is Israel worship God with spirit and truth?

No, so they not worship true God.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Galatians 1: 11 But I make known to you, brothers, concerning the Good News which was preached by me, that it is not according to man. 12 For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came to me through revelation of Jesus
So you agree Holy Spirit talk to individual don't you

notice that later in Galatians Paul says that he visits the apostles in Jerusalem, and they essentially give him a commission to preach the gospel that he had received personally. At least that's one way of looking at it.
It mean apostles agree that Holy Spirit teach Paul as individual, if not why they commission Paul who learn form Holy Spirit as individual?
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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1. yes I agree Paul talking about Israel Jews
2. No, true god not teach to reject Jesus. Israel zeal for God of their imagination. God that help them free from Rome, like Samson free them from ,Philistine.
Well if we look at the next verse
Romans 10: 3 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they didn't subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Does it sound to you like the God mentioned in this verse is the true God or a false god?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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No, true god not teach to reject Jesus.
Also, is Paul saying that they are taught by the God for which they have a zeal? It sounds to me like Paula saying that they have a zeal for God, the true God, but they are ignorant of him!
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Like I say, worship god doesn't mean reject God. How you worship god and reject god in the same time
Do you remember the story of the ancient Samaritans?
How they worshipped both the true God and idols at the same time?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Jesus is God
There for reject Jesus = reject god
That's true!

At the same time, is it possible to worship the true God and reject Jesus at the same time?

You cannot worship God in spirit and in truth and reject Jesus.

But, imo, you can worship God in ignorance and reject Jesus at the same time. It is possible to worship the true God in ignorance, just as it is possible to have a zeal for the true God in ignorance.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Establish their own righteousness, mean they make themselves god
They didn't subject to the righteousness of God.

So they don't have a zeal for true god.

Like Muslim, have a zeal for their Quran god, not true god

True god not reject Jesus because Jesus is God
Well, looking at those 3 verses

Romans 10: 1 Brothers, my heart's desire and my prayer to God is for Israel, that they may be saved. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they didn't subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Are you saying the Paul is talking about the true God in verse 1, then a false god in verse 2, then back to the true God in verse 3?
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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John 4:24

King James Version


24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Is Israel worship God with spirit and truth?

No, so they not worship true God.
Yes, God wants people to worship him in spirit and in truth!

But there are other verses in the Bible that talk about worshiping God in ignorance, aren't there? Not that those versus say that it's a good thing, or that it is something to be sought after, but it does talk about it, doesn't it?