The Millennium is a Pharisee Doctrine

[presidente]

Why do you say that?

Jesus Christ will come back

Since you are a post-tribber may I ask you, how do you get around 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 and Matthew 25:31-46 where if post-trib premillennialism is correct,
[/QUOTE]

I think I should ask you the same question about II Thessalonians 1:1-9 since it is talking about Jesus giving the CHURCH rest when He comes back to execute judgment on the wicked. So if the judgment on them that believe not is total, meaning it includes all unbelievers, and if it is more or less instant, then it would have to occur at the pre-trib rapture if pre-trib is right, because that is when Jesus comes back for the church according to that theory. If it is some kind of contradiction, tension, or issue, it is a bigger one for pre-trib. Who would God be pouring all that wrath on if everyone were either raptured, resurrected, or gone during the tribulation?

Take a look at the passage.

2 Thessalonians 1:1-9 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Pre-trib doesn't have Jesus giving rest to 'you' and 'us' when he comes back, but rather some separate group of tribulation saints that certain promises of scripture are not supposed to apply to, according to the pre-trib theory.

Notice that for pre-tribbers, that 'church' is not mentioned in Revelation in reference to the tribulation is a central argument to the position. But in Paul's writings here, the church is present when Jesus comes to execute judgment on the wicked. They receive rest when he returns. This passage is one of the things that sealed it for me on pre-trib. Pre-trib wasn't just some bean under a shell that I couldn't see as the pre-tribbers moved the shells around. I could see actual scripture against it. The church is here when Jesus returns to take vengence on them that know not God. As I recall, the version of pre-trib I was taught did not require absolute anihilation of all unbelievers at Christ's return-- maybe giving Israel a chance to repent at his coming and such as that, and armies trying to fight Christ in some scenarios, and being wiped out.

Some prophecies in the Bible are 'telescoped' in the Bible, even Old Testament prophecy. Events that can take a long time are described briefly in a few paragraphs. Revelation describes some of the issues being resolved after 1000 years.

As far as Matthew 25 goes, if a NATION has been good to the least of the Lord's brethren, then they receive favor. There is a case for individual unbelievers being offered some mercy based on the favor their nation has shown the Lord's brethren. So that is not a case for total instant anihilation of all unbelievers.

 

[presidente]

Why do you say that?

Because the verses state God will destroy all who dont obey the gospel at His coming, and according to post-trib, Christians also are raptured/resurrected at the second coming, this leaves no one left in the flesh.[/QUOTE]



II Thessalonians 1:1-9 is a big problem for pre-tribbers since it is talking about Jesus giving the CHURCH rest when He comes back to execute judgment on the wicked. So if the judgment on them that believe not is total, meaning it includes all unbelievers, and if it is more or less instant, then it would have to occur at the pre-trib rapture if pre-trib is right, because that is when Jesus comes back for the church according to that theory. If it is some kind of contradiction, tension, or issue, it is a bigger one for pre-trib. Who would God be pouring all that wrath on if everyone were either raptured, resurrected, or gone during the tribulation?

Take a look at the passage.

2 Thessalonians 1:1-9 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Pre-trib doesn't have Jesus giving rest to 'you' and 'us' when he comes back, but rather some separate group of tribulation saints that certain promises of scripture are not supposed to apply to, according to the pre-trib theory.

Notice that for pre-tribbers, that 'church' is not mentioned in Revelation in reference to the tribulation is a central argument to the position. But in Paul's writings here, the church is present when Jesus comes to execute judgment on the wicked. They receive rest when he returns. This passage is one of the things that sealed it for me on pre-trib. Pre-trib wasn't just some bean under a shell that I couldn't see as the pre-tribbers moved the shells around. I could see actual scripture against it. The church is here when Jesus returns to take vengence on them that know not God. As I recall, the version of pre-trib I was taught did not require absolute anihilation of all unbelievers at Christ's return-- maybe giving Israel a chance to repent at his coming and such as that, and armies trying to fight Christ in some scenarios, and being wiped out.

Some prophecies in the Bible are 'telescoped' in the Bible, even Old Testament prophecy. Events that can take a long time are described briefly in a few paragraphs. Revelation describes some of the issues being resolved after 1000 years.

As far as Matthew 25 goes, if a NATION has been good to the least of the Lord's brethren, then they receive favor. There is a case for individual unbelievers being offered some mercy based on the favor their nation has shown the Lord's brethren. So that is not a case for total instant anihilation of all unbelievers.

 

[wolfwint]

He said nothing about a millennium. The Pharisees did. If you cannot see it in scripture, you will only argue with me. It's too obvious if you've spent any significant time in scripture. Hint; Is Jesus God? If so, he rules all nations with a rod of iron. If David's throne is God's throne (concealed in scripture from all but the studious) Then he rules on David's throne now. and much more if you can discern it.

So then who is now in the invisible kingdome, which you are seeing?
I mean that there is present an for us invisible reality its clear. You are talking about the kingdom which Christ was speaking about when he was on earth.
But what about the Millenium in rev. 20?
It seems not to be the same.
The theme of this thread is the Millenium which we found in rev 20. I suppose


But, because we found different meaning and views about the Millenium and all claimed to be on the base of the scripture. We will not find a solution. So believe your View and I believe my View. Who is right the coming Future will reveal.
Difficult it will be if we claim that only our View is right.

 

[presidente]

Why does post-trib figure into it? Isn't that a problem with all premillennial? Make it pre-trib: the raptured go to Heaven, those saved after the rapture and martyred rule as kings over the earth...over whom? Everybody else died in Armageddon.

You wrongly attributed the Kolistus post to me in the post I am responding to, where he said,

Since you are a post-tribber may I ask you, how do you get around 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 and Matthew 25:31-46 where if post-trib premillennialism is correct, no one is left in the flesh to populate the millennium? Saved go up, lost go poof.

Anyway, in response to your question, I am not pre-trib, but I was taught growing up, and that is not what I was taught. Pre-tribbers, as far as I know, believe in going to heaven for seven years, then coming back with Jesus to rule and reign on the earth. The version I was taught allowed for some survivors who could believe in Jesus at His coming or after it, especially Jewish people who receive deliverance from Christ at a time when armies are invading. I think they have Gog and Magog invading twice in pre-trib scenarios, but I suppose it depends on who teaches it.

I saw a little video clip of an interview with NT Wright which started off with an announcer saying that many people believed they would be raptured and lived in heaven forever. I thought, "Huh? Who believes that?" The video went on to talk about belief in Christ returning, a New Earth-- stuff I heard from pre-tribbers but on a different timeline than what right probably believes in.

There is a folk Christian believe that you die and go to heaven and that's it, and there is no thought of the resurrection. Some pre-tribbers believe in dying and going to heaven before later getting resurrected. That seems to be a standard belief. But I do not know of anyone who teaches raptured and in heaven forever while Christ reigns on the earth. I'm not saying no one teaches that. I am just not familiar with it.

Do you have a source?

 

[Dave-L]

So then who is now in the invisible kingdome, which you are seeing?
I mean that there is present an for us invisible reality its clear. You are talking about the kingdom which Christ was speaking about when he was on earth.
But what about the Millenium in rev. 20?
It seems not to be the same.
The theme of this thread is the Millenium which we found in rev 20. I suppose


But, because we found different meaning and views about the Millenium and all claimed to be on the base of the scripture. We will not find a solution. So believe your View and I believe my View. Who is right the coming Future will reveal.
Difficult it will be if we claim that only our View is right.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. The kingdom is eternal, not 1000 years. Only the born again can see it. Jesus says it is not of this world..... The millennium is a Pharisee doctrine that led them to reject Christ. It is a physical kingdom of sight. The Kingdom of God is spiritual and of faith only.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It is self-destructive. It crashes after 1000 years.

No. That's when "[the LAST enemy] DEATH" crashes .

See how in 1Cor15:23-24, that v.24 uses the Greek word "THEN [G1534] the end"... THIS Greek word is a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY, with no time element attached to it.

Then note how the first two items in this LIST are some-2000 yrs apart;

that the second set of LISTED items are "1000 yrs apart" is NO PROBLEM at all!

This text is NOT saying, "THEN [immediately] the end," but "THEN [SEQUENTIALLY] the end"... for He must reign until...

The first 1000 years is simply the first of MUCH MORE... and the point in time (when at the GWTj all "the dead [/unsaved]" of all times are cast into the lake of fire... The final carrying out of the sentence. They will exist forever in that place/condition. No one can "DIE" to escape out of it. It is "eternal separation" from God.)

"the last enemy to be destroyed is DEATH" v.26.

[after the MK age... no one ever dies; IN / DURING the MK age, "death" will be much more rare, reserved ONLY for the rebellious]

 

[John146]

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. The kingdom is eternal, not 1000 years. Only the born again can see it. Jesus says it is not of this world..... The millennium is a Pharisee doctrine that led them to reject Christ. It is a physical kingdom of sight. The Kingdom of God is spiritual and of faith only.

Flesh and bone can inherit the kingdom, not blood. Blood is corrupt. Besides, the passage is concerning inheritance not entrance.

 

[Dave-L]

No. That's when "[the LAST enemy] DEATH" crashes .

See how in 1Cor15:23-24, that v.24 uses the Greek word "THEN [G1535] the end"... THIS Greek word is a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY, with no time element attached to it.

Then note how the first two items in this LIST are some-2000 yrs apart;

that the second set of LISTED items are "1000 yrs apart" is NO PROBLEM at all!

This text is NOT saying, "THEN [immediately] the end]," but "THEN [SEQUENTIALLY] the end"... for He must reign...

The first 1000 years is simply the first of MUCH MORE... and the point in time (when at the GWTj all "the dead [/unsaved]" of all times are cast into the lake of fire... The final carrying out of the sentence. They will exist forever in that place/condition. No one can "DIE" to escape out of it. It is "eternal separation" from God.)

Is Jesus God? If so, he rules the nations presently with a rod of iron. Is David's throne God's throne? (the OT says it is) That means he reigns from David's throne in heavenly Jerusalem above. Just as Peter says in Acts 2. Does he reign until he destroys the last enemy death? Then he will reign as he does now, until the resurrection on the last day. According to Paul. And then deliver the kingdom up to the Father. The Pharisees do not know Christ. You should not think as they do.

 

[Dave-L]

Flesh and bone can inherit the kingdom, not blood. Blood is corrupt. Besides, the passage is concerning inheritance not entrance.

Bone is where the blood comes from.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Is Jesus God? If so, he rules the nations presently with a rod of iron. Is David's throne God's throne? (the OT says it is) That means he reigns from David's throne in heavenly Jerusalem above. Just as Peter says in Acts 2. Does he reign until he destroys the last enemy death? Then he will reign as he does now, until the resurrection on the last day. According to Paul. And then deliver the kingdom up to the Father. The Pharisees do not know Christ. You should not think as they do.

Besides your misquoting of Scripture, here ^ (it says "IN/AT the last day" not "ON the last [24-hr] day" !), I've already pointed out a number of passages showing that "The Last Day" is NOT "a singular 24-hr day" (note Job19:25-27, for one example)... here's one of those posts (for the benefit of the readers, who I hope will READ IT CAREFULLY and thoughtfully):


[quoting old post on this passage]


I've posted this before about the "days" (and/or "day") issues (the ones that are not "singular 24-hr days"):

Hosea 5:15-6:3 [re: Israel] -

14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim

and like a young lion to the house of Judah.

I, even I, will tear them to pieces

and then go away.

I will carry them off

where no one can rescue them.

15 Then I will return to My place

until they admit their guilt and seek My face;

in their affliction

they will earnestly [or, early] seek Me.”

6:1 Come, let us [Israel] return to the LORD.

For He has torn us [Israel] to pieces,

but He will heal us [Israel];

He has wounded us [Israel],

but He will bind up our [Israel's] wounds.

2 After two days He will revive [H2421] us [Israel]; [see H2421 in Ezekiel 37 also, vv.3,5,6,9,10,14]

on/in the third day He will raise [H6965] us [Israel] up, [see H6965 in Isaiah 26 also, v.19]

that we [Israel] may live [H2421 (ditto the above note)] in His presence.

3 So let us [Israel] know—

let us [Israel] press on to know the LORD.

As surely as the sun rises,

He will appear;

He will come to us [Israel] like the rain,

like the spring showers that water the earth [/as the latter rain unto the earth].


____________

[then... quoting Gaebelein's Commentary on Hosea 5]

"And like the lion after his attack withdraws to his den, so the Lord would withdraw from them, leave them and return to His place, waiting till their repentance comes and they seek Him early in their affliction.

"The last verse of this chapter has a wider meaning than the past judgment which came upon the house of Israel. The Lord of glory came to earth and visited His people. He came with the message and offer of the kingdom to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He came unto His own, but His own received Him not. After they had rejected Him, delivered Him into the hands of the Gentiles to be crucified, He returned to His place. There He is now at the right hand of God, waiting for that day, when the remnant of Israel will repent and seek His face Acts 3:19-26. [I mentioned Acts 3:21's reference to FUTURE events (i.e. the "UNTIL") in my Post #71 of this thread (EDIT: a different thread, not this present thread)]. That will be in their coming great affliction, in the time of Jacob’s trouble.

"Hosea 6:1-3. The division of the chapter at this point is unfortunate. The three verses of chapter 6 must not be detached from the previous chapter. Here we have the future repentance of the remnant of Israel, that is during the great tribulation. Believingly they will acknowledge His righteous judgment and express their faith and hope in His mercy and the promised blessings and restoration. They express what their great prophet Moses so beautifully stated in His prophetic song, that great vision given to him, ere he went to the mountain to die. “See now that I, even I, am He and there is no god with Me; I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand” Deuteronomy 32:39. “After two days will He revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight (literally, before His face).” They have been dead spiritually and nationally, but when the two days of their blindness and dispersion are over, there is coming for them the third day of life and [what is *LIKENED UNTO a] resurrection."

--Gaebelein, Commentary on Hosea 5 (taken from Bible Hub)

[end quoting Gaebelein; bold and underline mine; bracketed insertions mine]


[end quoting that post]

 

[John146]

Bone is where the blood comes from.

Our new resurrected bodies will be bone and flesh and no blood, just like Jesus (and Adam).

 

[presidente]

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. The kingdom is eternal, not 1000 years. Only the born again can see it. Jesus says it is not of this world..... The millennium is a Pharisee doctrine that led them to reject Christ. It is a physical kingdom of sight. The Kingdom of God is spiritual and of faith only.

Jesus said that he had flesh and bones in Luke 24. I do not see anyone saying Christ's kingdom will be only 1000 years.

But I do notice that Paul said that Jesus would reign until He put all enemies under His feet, and that Jesus would deliver up the kingdom to God, so that God may be all in all.

 

[wolfwint]

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. The kingdom is eternal, not 1000 years. Only the born again can see it. Jesus says it is not of this world..... The millennium is a Pharisee doctrine that led them to reject Christ. It is a physical kingdom of sight. The Kingdom of God is spiritual and of faith only.

Well, we will see. I met no single born again Christian who can see this invisible kingdom, even you not. If you would see it, you would be able to describe it in Detail. But you cant.
It reminds me to the claime of some cults that Jesus already has invisible returned on earth.
Millenium is no pharasees doctrine. Its promissed to the Jews. And it will come, as it was prommissed. You believe it ore not.
Its Gods word and not mankind wisdom.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Millenium is no pharasees doctrine. Its promissed to the Jews. And it will come, as it was prommissed. You believe it ore not.

You are absolutely correct. It is only the modern *Pharisees* who deny the truth of the Millennium. Since it is clearly revealed in Scripture, they also make God a liar.

 

[Dave-L]

Well, we will see. I met no single born again Christian who can see this invisible kingdom, even you not. If you would see it, you would be able to describe it in Detail. But you cant.
It reminds me to the claime of some cults that Jesus already has invisible returned on earth.
Millenium is no pharasees doctrine. Its promissed to the Jews. And it will come, as it was prommissed. You believe it ore not.
Its Gods word and not mankind wisdom.

Many are Premillennialist who are deceived but can see the kingdom when pointed out. You must not know any Amillennialists who are born again and can see the kingdom. The Historic Church condemned Premillennialism as heresy.

 

[Dave-L]

Jesus said that he had flesh and bones in Luke 24. I do not see anyone saying Christ's kingdom will be only 1000 years.

But I do notice that Paul said that Jesus would reign until He put all enemies under His feet, and that Jesus would deliver up the kingdom to God, so that God may be all in all.

But you believe in the Pharisee's physical kingdom and fail to see the true kingdom that came in the time of the Roman Empire. Plus many more things that refute Millennialism.

 

[Dave-L]

Our new resurrected bodies will be bone and flesh and no blood, just like Jesus (and Adam).

John says otherwise.

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” 1 John 3:2 (KJV 1900)

 

[John146]

John says otherwise.

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” 1 John 3:2 (KJV 1900)

Yes, we still have corrupted bodies because of the blood. Blood represents sin and what relates us back to the first Adam. Jesus has a resurrected body that has flesh and bone but no blood. It is called an uncorrupted, immortal, spiritual body. We shall bear the image of the heavenly.

 

[Dave-L]

Yes, we still have corrupted bodies because of the blood. Blood represents sin and what relates us back to the first Adam. Jesus has a resurrected body that has flesh and bone but no blood. It is called an uncorrupted, immortal, spiritual body. We shall bear the image of the heavenly.

But this was before he ascended.

 

[John146]

But this was before he ascended.

Nope. He had already ascended once. Then He returned to show himself to the disciples.

John 20
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.