The Millennium is a Pharisee Doctrine

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,161
1,789
113
The MILLENNIUM: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10840-millennium
By: Joseph Jacobs, A. Biram

Table of Contents

Messianic Period an Interregnum.

The reign of peace, lasting one thousand years, which will precede the Last Judgment and the future life. The concept has assumed especial importance in the Christian Church, where it is termed also “chiliasm,” designating the dominion of Jesus with the glorified and risen saints over the world for a thousand years. Chiliasm or the idea of the millennium is, nevertheless, older than the Christian Church; for the belief in a period of one thousand years at the end of time as a preliminary to the resurrection of the dead was held in Parseeism. This concept is expressed in Jewish literature in Enoch, xiii., xci. 12-17; in the apocalypse of the ten weeks, in Apoc. Baruch, xl. 3 (“And his dominion shall last forever, until the world doomed to destruction shall perish”); and in II Esdras vii. 28-29. Neither here nor in later Jewish literature is the duration of this Messianic reign fixed. It is clear, however, that the rule of the Messiah was considered as an interregnum, from the fact that in many passages, such as Pes. 68a, Ber. 34b, Sanh. 91b and 99a, Shab. 63a, 113b, and 141b, a distinction is made between and , although it must be noted that some regarded the Messianic rule as the period of the fulfilment of the prophecies, while others saw in it the time of the subjugation of the nations.



So it is no wonder it found its way into the first century Church comprised mainly of Jews.



But in time, the church condemned it as heresy. First, According to the Nicene Creed


We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made; Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And we believe in one holy catholic* and apostolic church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Sproul, R. C. (Ed.). (2015). The Reformation Study Bible: English Standard Version (2015 Edition) (p. 2389). Orlando, FL: Reformation Trust.

And condemned as heresy by the Council of Ephesus in 431 in two ways.



“In addition to its condemnation of Nestorianism, the council also condemned

Pelagianism, [2] and rejected premillennialism (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Papias,

Tertullian, Origen, Lactantius) in favor of amillennialism (Clement of

Alexandria, Chrysostom, Jerome and Augustine of Hippo): "Augustine's

explanation became Church doctrine when it was adopted as the definitive

explanation of the millennium by the Council of Ephesus in 431."[35]



Secondly, “Canon 7 condemned any departure from the creed established by the First Council of Nicaea (325)” This affirmed Jesus “shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.” Thereby denouncing premillennialism and the doctrines leading up to and including Dispensationalism of the 1800s.



Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Council_of_Ephesus&oldid=921743450"
Premil does not contradict “shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.” since premillers believe all that. I don't agree with pre-trib, and they agree with that.

I do have a comment, though. Paul wrote that He would reign until He put all things under His feet, and then Christ would deliver up the kingdom to God.
 

ComeLordJesus

Senior Member
Dec 26, 2017
372
39
28
It is not the least bit true. The kingdom you seek is here now. But only the born again can see it.

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3 (KJV 1900)
A visible Kingdom never came into existence since Jesus was rejected as King and crucified,
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
Premil does not contradict “shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.” since premillers believe all that. I don't agree with pre-trib, and they agree with that.

I do have a comment, though. Paul wrote that He would reign until He put all things under His feet, and then Christ would deliver up the kingdom to God.
How can he deliver up something that doesn't exist? How can it be a "millennium" if he supposedly brings it with him?
 

ComeLordJesus

Senior Member
Dec 26, 2017
372
39
28
Your link provides the scripture Dan.2:44. The Kingdom that shall never be destroyed is the Millennial Kingdom. Rev.11:15 The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of our Lord, and his Christ and he shall reign for ever and ever. Rev.11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms pf our Lord, and of his Christ and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The sounding of the seventh trumpet will mark the beginning of the second half of the 70th week of Daniel 9:26-27, also known as "the great tribulation." It will sound throughout the entire 31/2 year period as the seven vial judgements which it initiates break out one by one over the earth. By the time the 31/2 years are done all the kingdoms of the world will heave become the kingdoms of the lord and His Christ.
 

acts5_29

Active member
Apr 17, 2020
327
89
28
I noticed the OP in this thread is getting a bad rap.

To be fair, the ONLY reference to the Millennium in canonical Scripture is that small passage in Revelation 20:1-6. It simply doesn't jibe with the rest of Scripture: that we will die once, then either face Judgement or avoid it through redemption, then spend eternity...somewhere.... And to be frank, I don't like ANY of the mainstream millennial views--be it premillennail, amillennial, postmillennial, panmillennial, or purely idealistic. None of them really quite compute for me.

So if someone offers an explanation that this is a Pharisaic view which John is borrowing from, then I am all ears. Doesn't mean it is a WRONG view--after all, Revelation is in the canon--only Pharisaic.
 

Kolistus

Well-known member
Feb 3, 2020
538
276
63
Using that as an argument against millennialism is a foolish argument. I have never heard a millennealist argue that Christ's kingdom ended at the end of the thousand years. Pre-mils, or at least dispensationalists, I've heard believe that after the thousand years this earth is burnt with fervent heat with the kingdom continuing forever with the new heaven and the new earth.

You have also basically admitted that your own eschatology depends on the apostles being wrong in this passage.

Acts 1
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Jesus encouraged them in this belief which you reject.

I will take the side of the apostles and Christ that the restoration of the kingdom to Israel is a true thing to come.

The earliest writings that deal with this topic affirm an actual kingdom, with the prophets coming to an actual Jerusalem, etc. Eusebius, an amillennialist if I recall correctly, admitted that Papias, who knew St. John took it that way, the way you would describe as chiliastic. Justin Martyr wrote that Christians who were rightly minded agreed with him, and described the coming literal kingdom, but said there were some who disagreed. We do not know if those who disagreed were amil or had a completely different eschatology. But evidence for amil comes later. After a few hundred years, the strange idea arose that allegorical versus literal as the same as spiritual versus literal. Paul did not write about the 'spirit of the law'. He wrote about the Spirit and he wrote about the law. Augustine, probably borrowing from Ambrose, had this idea that literal interpretations were unspiritual or less spiritual. He was influential, and amil was popularize.

Someone got onto amil on your cessationist thread recently, but one can be non-cessationist and be amil. Augustine wrote a few cessationist comments early on, but he wrote of many miracles he witnessed toward the end of his life, documenting numerous healings in his days. (The number of anal fistulas that people suffered with and therefore had to be healed from was disturbing, but I saw a documentary that mentioned some of the Romans unsanitary practices, dipping communal sponges in grey water and such, so the need for that type of healing was quite important.) Augustine wanted people to come forward and testify of the many healings that had taken place.

You also confuse the kingdom of God with the specific topic of the restoration of the kingdom to Israel. The kingdom of God is the rule and reign of God, and includes and is related to such things as righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost, healing, miracles, raising the dead, and the preaching of repentance. Jesus sent the twelve with instructions to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, and cast out devils. He told them to preach 'Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.' They demonstrated the proximity of the kingdom of God through miracles.

You actually oppose aspects of the kingdom of God on the earth in this age. Jesus said, "If I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you..." Jesus also called casting out demons a miracle. You are against the idea of the saints working miracles. So you are against one of the manifestations of the kingdom of God in this age.

The kingdom





And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And we believe in one holy catholic* and apostolic church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Sproul, R. C. (Ed.). (2015). The Reformation Study Bible: English Standard Version (2015 Edition) (p. 2389). Orlando, FL: Reformation Trust.

And condemned as heresy by the Council of Ephesus in 431 in two ways.



“In addition to its condemnation of Nestorianism, the council also condemned

Pelagianism, [2] and rejected premillennialism (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Papias,

Tertullian, Origen, Lactantius) in favor of amillennialism (Clement of

Alexandria, Chrysostom, Jerome and Augustine of Hippo): "Augustine's

explanation became Church doctrine when it was adopted as the definitive

explanation of the millennium by the Council of Ephesus in 431."[35]



Secondly, “Canon 7 condemned any departure from the creed established by the First Council of Nicaea (325)” This affirmed Jesus “shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.” Thereby denouncing premillennialism and the doctrines leading up to and including Dispensationalism of the 1800s.



Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Council_of_Ephesus&oldid=921743450"
[/QUOTE]
Since you are a post-tribber may I ask you, how do you get around 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 and Matthew 25:31-46 where if post-trib premillennialism is correct, no one is left in the flesh to populate the millennium? Saved go up, lost go poof.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
[...] To be fair, the ONLY reference to the Millennium in canonical Scripture is that small passage in Revelation 20:1-6. It simply doesn't jibe with the rest of Scripture: [...]
Consider this excerpt from a post I made awhile back:

[quoting excerpt from old post]

[...] the following two passages correlate, time-wise (in the following way)...

--Revelation 19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 (at the time of His Second Coming to the earth), correlates with

--the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22a[23] ("shall PUNISH...gathered in the pit... shut up in the prison");



Then (these correlate, time-wise, also),

--the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:[21-]22b[23] ("and AFTER MANY DAYS shall they be PUNISHED"), correlates with

--Revelation 20:11-15 (the later GRTj point-in-time, for all of the "dead [/unsaved]" of all times, as well as these particular ones being spoken of, "the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 yrs were concluded"--[i.e. GWTj=the final carrying out of the sentence])

[end quoting that post]


____________

This, among other reasons, is why Isaiah 24-26 [27?] is commonly called "the little apocalypse".

This is just one passage of many showing the SAME "CHRONOLOGY".

Hope that helps you see another perspective. :)
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,161
1,789
113
How can he deliver up something that doesn't exist? How can it be a "millennium" if he supposedly brings it with him?
I do not see what point you are trying to make with these questions.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,161
1,789
113
Since you are a post-tribber may I ask you, how do you get around 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 and Matthew 25:31-46 where if post-trib premillennialism is correct, no one is left in the flesh to populate the millennium? Saved go up, lost go poof.[/QUOTE]
Why do you say that?
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
Your link provides the scripture Dan.2:44. The Kingdom that shall never be destroyed is the Millennial Kingdom. Rev.11:15 The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of our Lord, and his Christ and he shall reign for ever and ever. Rev.11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms pf our Lord, and of his Christ and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The sounding of the seventh trumpet will mark the beginning of the second half of the 70th week of Daniel 9:26-27, also known as "the great tribulation." It will sound throughout the entire 31/2 year period as the seven vial judgements which it initiates break out one by one over the earth. By the time the 31/2 years are done all the kingdoms of the world will heave become the kingdoms of the lord and His Christ.
The sounding of the seventh trumpet will mark the last day the end of time in the twinkling of the eye .The letter of the law death and its suffering (hell) that accompanies it will be cast into the final judgment fire. The letter of the law will not rise and condemn through corruption another entire creation .In that same twinkling of the eye we will be changed and no long under the Sun

All one lighting action the last day...The end of the drama (hell) , not the beginning. The tribulation of the last days which began when Christ said it is finished is over. The corrupted walls have fell .No temple in that city .There will be no more night.

John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 12:48-49 King James Version (KJV)He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
 

acts5_29

Active member
Apr 17, 2020
327
89
28
Consider this excerpt from a post I made awhile back:

[quoting excerpt from old post]

[...] the following two passages correlate, time-wise (in the following way)...

--Revelation 19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 (at the time of His Second Coming to the earth), correlates with

--the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22a[23] ("shall PUNISH...gathered in the pit... shut up in the prison");



Then (these correlate, time-wise, also),

--the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:[21-]22b[23] ("and AFTER MANY DAYS shall they be PUNISHED"), correlates with

--Revelation 20:11-15 (the later GRTj point-in-time, for all of the "dead [/unsaved]" of all times, as well as these particular ones being spoken of, "the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 yrs were concluded"--[i.e. GWTj=the final carrying out of the sentence])

[end quoting that post]


____________

This, among other reasons, is why Isaiah 24-26 [27?] is commonly called "the little apocalypse".

This is just one passage of many showing the SAME "CHRONOLOGY".

Hope that helps you see another perspective. :)
I considered the Scripture, as you said.

It is true, why would the kings be gathered up together in prison--WAITING to be punished?? Why aren't they just dead, one-by-one...and go straight to punishment once they're dead? Why this purgatory state?

I will give this much: in pretty much all non-modern times, that's the way it was done. Kings go to war, one king is captured. He goes to the dungeon and awaits his punishment. The defeated rank-and-file soldiers did not suffer that.
 

acts5_29

Active member
Apr 17, 2020
327
89
28
Since you are a post-tribber may I ask you, how do you get around 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 and Matthew 25:31-46 where if post-trib premillennialism is correct, no one is left in the flesh to populate the millennium? Saved go up, lost go poof.

Why does post-trib figure into it? Isn't that a problem with all premillennial? Make it pre-trib: the raptured go to Heaven, those saved after the rapture and martyred rule as kings over the earth...over whom? Everybody else died in Armageddon.
 

Kolistus

Well-known member
Feb 3, 2020
538
276
63
Since you are a post-tribber may I ask you, how do you get around 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 and Matthew 25:31-46 where if post-trib premillennialism is correct, no one is left in the flesh to populate the millennium? Saved go up, lost go poof.
Why do you say that?[/QUOTE]
Because the verses state God will destroy all who dont obey the gospel at His coming, and according to post-trib, Christians also are raptured/resurrected at the second coming, this leaves no one left in the flesh.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
Your link provides the scripture Dan.2:44. The Kingdom that shall never be destroyed is the Millennial Kingdom. Rev.11:15 The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of our Lord, and his Christ and he shall reign for ever and ever. Rev.11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms pf our Lord, and of his Christ and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The sounding of the seventh trumpet will mark the beginning of the second half of the 70th week of Daniel 9:26-27, also known as "the great tribulation." It will sound throughout the entire 31/2 year period as the seven vial judgements which it initiates break out one by one over the earth. By the time the 31/2 years are done all the kingdoms of the world will heave become the kingdoms of the lord and His Christ.
It is self-destructive. It crashes after 1000 years.
 

ComeLordJesus

Senior Member
Dec 26, 2017
372
39
28
Since you are a post-tribber may I ask you, how do you get around 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 and Matthew 25:31-46 where if post-trib premillennialism is correct, no one is left in the flesh to populate the millennium? Saved go up, lost go poof.
Why do you say that?[/QUOTE]

Jesus Christ will come back
Since you are a post-tribber may I ask you, how do you get around 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 and Matthew 25:31-46 where if post-trib premillennialism is correct,

Kolistus said:
no one is left in the flesh to populate the millennium? Saved go up, lost go poof.
https://www.gotquestions.org/millennial-kingdom.html
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
Jesus Christ will come back

Since you are a post-tribber may I ask you, how do you get around 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 and Matthew 25:31-46 where if post-trib premillennialism is correct,



https://www.gotquestions.org/millennial-kingdom.html[/QUOTE]

God is not a man.

The Spirit of Christ is here reigning as our High priest, a kingdom of priest sending them out two by two to all the nations of the world . .

They are called the earthen temple of God the church. Having the treasure of the unseen glorious power of our father in these bodies of death .

When His Spirt which dwells in the believer leaves on the last day those who were asleep will raise with them and in the twinkling of the eye receive their new incorruptible bodies .Which will be neither male not female Jew nor gentile called the bride the church, the spiritual house of God. She is made up of many lively stones..
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
It is the Millennial Kingdom before the renovation of the earth by fire and the establishment of the perfect Kingdom, the new heavens.
Amen. All of the below happens after the 1000 years Millennium:

Rev 20
20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
 

acts5_29

Active member
Apr 17, 2020
327
89
28
The problem I have with Amill is, I find it hard to believe that Jesus is reigning on earth "invisibly", and that Satan has been bound and cast down--and for a figurative thousand years at that--when history has been anything but. The black plague, wars, the Crusades (why is there a war for Jerusalem when I thought the war was already won?), the Catholic church's backsliding to make the Reformation necessary, extreme social elitism, you name it. How has the world become any less sinful after the Crucifixion than it was before? I'm sorry, but any evidence of Satan being bound is simply not there.