Eternal security? or loss of salvation? what does the bible really say on these two subjects!

[Grandpa]

This is PURELY a question of faith.


If you believe there are conditions of salvation that YOU have met then you must believe if you stop meeting them then salvation must be able to be lost.


If you believe that Christ has met all the conditions of Salvation and has GIVEN this to you as His Gift then you cannot believe that Salvation can be lost.


The scripture that you read will re-enforce the faith that you already have. You will read it and understand it a certain way.


So really, your view of Salvation just shows other people what your faith is and who it is in.

I've done studies too. But what I can't do is give someone else MY Faith.

 

[tantalon]

The quotes I gave were from the Bible, It is not my "view" or doctrine. If you do not agree with the stated doctrine, then give scripture to show the error. Intellectual arguments or personal beliefs, should not be added onto the Truth of God's Word, except for clarification.

 

[Elderdave]

Eternal - Without end, Forever,
Life, as opposed to death,

A life which will never end, a person who has it will never die.

How is it obtained?

By Faith (living faith, not just mere belief) By asking

John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

John 4:
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6: 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.” ...........35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. .......................... 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” ................... 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” ................54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.” ............ 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. ...............
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

It is something we have already been given,

John 10: 28 - And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand

John 17: 3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

1 John 1: 2 - the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

1 John 2: 25 - And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

1 John 5: 11And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

1 John 5: 13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

It is evidenced by those who are made righteous, and changed creatures who do the works of God

Matt 25: And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Rom 2: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

1 tim 6: 12 -
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

It is a gift, which can not be earned by our good works.

Rom 6: 23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And it is the hope of which our faith is base on

Titus 1: 2 - in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

Titus 3: 7 - that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

you must take these passages and put them into the context of the 38 other passages in the new testament that clarly stat that the gift of salvation has strings attached to it. The word 'eternal', like the word 'everlasting', and the word 'forever', have the meaning "a long period of time that will never end as long as certain conditions are met" Jesus said that if you do not forgive: that all that you have been forgiven will become unforgiven. Here is the passage:
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
This teaching that Jesus gave us states very clearly that if we refuse to forgive those who have wronged us: God will refuse to continue to forgive our past sins! and we well lose the gift of salvation that was given to us! for our continued forgiveness is dependent upon our forgiving others! This is what Jesus taught! I am just simply pointing out to you what Jesus says!

PLease read my study before you open your mouth again and reveal just how ignorant you are concerning what the bible actually says! I say this not to be rude, but rather to try to provoke you to actually read the study of the Holy Spirit and learn what the truth is! (and yes, the study that is attached is the Holy Spirits study! for it is the Holy Spirit who taught it to me over a period of 10 yrs. Much fasting and prayer has gone into this study! )

Have a great day!

David



this has all been explained in greater detail in my study that has been attached to this topic! please read it!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually You have to take the other what did you say 38 passages, And take them into context with these passages I used

Those passage are clear in what they say, Anything that makes them NOT TRUE. would be a contradiction of the word.

What are you going to show me that would make me not believe the passages I used?

 

[Elderdave]

This is PURELY a question of faith.


If you believe there are conditions of salvation that YOU have met then you must believe if you stop meeting them then salvation must be able to be lost.


If you believe that Christ has met all the conditions of Salvation and has GIVEN this to you as His Gift then you cannot believe that Salvation can be lost.


The scripture that you read will re-enforce the faith that you already have. You will read it and understand it a certain way.


So really, your view of Salvation just shows other people what your faith is and who it is in.

I've done studies too. But what I can't do is give someone else MY Faith.

My friend. it is not a matter of what YOU choose to believe. The scribs and pharisees chose to beleive something about the scriptures that was not true! and they went to hell for it! they were masters of the old testament. yet they did not have saving faith. What you choose to believe therefor is of utmost importance! God has given to us His will in the scriptures! If we choose to ignore that will, and ignore His instructions and believe whatever suits us instead: we will go to Hell! just as the unrepentant scribes and pharisees went to Hell! We must conform our lives and doctrines to what the bible says! and not try to fit the bible into what we choose to want to believe! for if we do the later and not the former: we most certainly will go to Hell! We must with all diligence study the word of God; being workmen that need not to be ashamed: rightly dividing the word of truth! God will not condemn us for true ignorance! but he will condemn us for wilful ignorance! As son's of the King of kings: we have the duty to learn the laws of His kingdom and submit ourselves to them! For God will not have anyone in his kingdom who will not obey his laws! and his laws have been given to us in the bible!

David

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The quotes I gave were from the Bible, It is not my "view" or doctrine. If you do not agree with the stated doctrine, then give scripture to show the error. Intellectual arguments or personal beliefs, should not be added onto the Truth of God's Word, except for clarification.

same goes to you

The verses I gave are also from the bible It is not my view, it is what God promises.

 

[notuptome]

My friend. it is not a matter of what YOU choose to believe. The scribs and pharisees chose to beleive something about the scriptures that was not true! and they went to hell for it! they were masters of the old testament. yet they did not have saving faith. What you choose to believe therefor is of utmost importance! God has given to us His will in the scriptures! If we choose to ignore that will, and ignore His instructions and believe whatever suits us instead: we will go to Hell! just as the unrepentant scribes and pharisees went to Hell! We must conform our lives and doctrines to what the bible says! and not try to fit the bible into what we choose to want to believe! for if we do the later and not the former: we most certainly will go to Hell! We must with all diligence study the word of God; being workmen that need not to be ashamed: rightly dividing the word of truth! God will not condemn us for true ignorance! but he will condemn us for wilful ignorance! As son's of the King of kings: we have the duty to learn the laws of His kingdom and submit ourselves to them! For God will not have anyone in his kingdom who will not obey his laws! and his laws have been given to us in the bible!

David

Well you are quite full of yourself. Jesus said He would save all who came to Him. You do not believe that statement. You are saying that one must obey a preset list of rules to be saved. God has declared that He saves by grace which is unmerited.

You are claiming authority you do not have. You really are not a good student of the word of God because you lack a close relationship with the Author. You need to learn the difference between salvation and sanctification.

Taste of the goodness of God. Give up the rigors of labor that profits nothing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Elderdave]

Actually You have to take the other what did you say 38 passages, And take them into context with these passages I used

Those passage are clear in what they say, Anything that makes them NOT TRUE. would be a contradiction of the word.

What are you going to show me that would make me not believe the passages I used?

You want to nulify the clear teachings of jesus and the apostles because you want to say that they cannot nulify the other passages? good grief! you speak like the pharisees of old. who nulified the command of God for the sake of their tradition! you are willfully putting blinders on your eyes so that you will not see the clear teachings of chirst and the apostles that contradict your interpretation of the passages that you quote! In order to rightly divide the word of God; you must take all of the scriptures that deal with a certain topic and tear them apart and put them back together in a logical orderly fashion. this is what the word study means! My study that is attached does this!

now you misquoted romans 8:1 for you only posted part of the scripture; the total passage says this:
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So in context, what paul is saying is that there is no condemnation to those who walk in the spirit and are spiritually minded. those who have their minds set on the things of the spirit. those who have there minds set on the things of the flesh are carnally mined and are condemned! for the promise of no condemnation is only for the spiritually minded! but carnal christian like to quote this passage in the wrong way that you have quoted it, and with the wrong understanding of what paul was saying. All such carnally minded people are in danger of going to Hell: except they repent and become spiritually minded! for according to paul, it is only the spiritually minded who are saved!

Please read the attached study. i have dealt with all of the passages that you have quoted and many more that you have not quoted in it. In it, i leave no stone unturned, and no argument unanswered! Please read it for your own good!

David

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You want to nulify the clear teachings of jesus and the apostles because you want to say that they cannot nulify the other passages? good grief! you speak like the pharisees of old. who nulified the command of God for the sake of their tradition! you are willfully putting blinders on your eyes so that you will not see the clear teachings of chirst and the apostles that contradict your interpretation of the passages that you quote! In order to rightly divide the word of God; you must take all of the scriptures that deal with a certain topic and tear them apart and put them back together in a logical orderly fashion. this is what the word study means! My study that is attached does this!

now you misquoted romans 8:1 for you only posted part of the scripture; the total passage says this:
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So in context, what paul is saying is that there is no condemnation to those who walk in the spirit and are spiritually minded. those who have their minds set on the things of the spirit. those who have there minds set on the things of the flesh are carnally mined and are condemned! for the promise of no condemnation is only for the spiritually minded! but carnal christian like to quote this passage in the wrong way that you have quoted it, and with the wrong understanding of what paul was saying. All such carnally minded people are in danger of going to Hell: except they repent and become spiritually minded! for according to paul, it is only the spiritually minded who are saved!

Please read the attached study. i have dealt with all of the passages that you have quoted and many more that you have not quoted in it. In it, i leave no stone unturned, and no argument unanswered! Please read it for your own good!

David

You want to nullify the clear teachings of Jesus in John 3, 4 5 and 6, plus the other passage I quoted

Rom 8 does not support your position. It supports mine

Those born again WILL be obedient, not might.

so yes, ROM 8 is who true believers are.

But it does not say they can lose salvation.

 

[Elderdave]

Well you are quite full of yourself. Jesus said He would save all who came to Him. You do not believe that statement. You are saying that one must obey a preset list of rules to be saved. God has declared that He saves by grace which is unmerited.

You are claiming authority you do not have. You really are not a good student of the word of God because you lack a close relationship with the Author. You need to learn the difference between salvation and sanctification.

Taste of the goodness of God. Give up the rigors of labor that profits nothing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes i do have a close relationship with God. You are not in a position to juge that! I do speak with the authority of God on these isssues! I am a true elder in the body of Christ! it is God who taught me these things as i sat at his feet. It is jesus who said that we must forgive, bear fruit, and obey him in order to keep the salvation that he has given to us! If you reject the teaching that I have given through the Holy Spirit, you are not rejecting my teaching: but the Holy Spirits teaching! For the teaching attached to this is from the Holy Spirit!
I will pray that god will forgive you for speaking against one of his anointed ones!

David

 

[Elderdave]

You want to nullify the clear teachings of Jesus in John 3, 4 5 and 6, plus the other passage I quoted

Rom 8 does not support your position. It supports mine

Those born again WILL be obedient, not might.

so yes, ROM 8 is who true believers are.

But it does not say they can lose salvation.

Please read my study! Paul definatley taught the loss of salvation. All i can do is repeat what is already said the my study! Please read it, you will see that your interpretations are wrong! but I strongly suspect that you do not care what the scriptures actually teach. You appear to be one of those people who have their minds made up and do not want to be confused with the facts! there is no greater way for you to remain in ignorance than to believe that you already know all the facts. and in your case, you are woefully ignorant of what the new testament says on this subject!
But if you refuse to read the study: then there is no point in carrying on a conversation with you. as no matter how many facts i give, and no matter how much reasoning i give to show you the truth: you will reject it all! and hold on to the error that you willfully choose to walk in! Thus neither i, nor anyone else can help you!

have a great day.

David

 

[JamOn]

Hi. this debate has raged on for centuries. i did a very therough bible study on this topic. it is very lengthy, but i deal with both topics and rightly divide the word on them. If you have your mind made up as to what you want to believe: then this study is not for you! because no matter how much evidence is presented to the contrary of what yo want to believe: you will not accept it or believe it! But if you have an open mind and only what to know what the truth is on these two topics: then this study is for you!
I start with the negative then the positive later on. please do not post any replies to this, or ask any questions concerning it, until you have read all of it! for i answer all questions and objections in this study! if after reading you have unanswered questions: (which is unlikely) please feel free to ask them. i will answer them. but please do not ask questions that have already been answered in this study.
So for the intellectually honest, and only the intellectually honest people i have attached my study for their reading pleasure.

I have a question is denying Christ a sure way to loose salvation? if so what is your take on Peter.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Please read my study! Paul definatley taught the loss of salvation. All i can do is repeat what is already said the my study! Please read it, you will see that your interpretations are wrong! but I strongly suspect that you do not care what the scriptures actually teach. You appear to be one of those people who have their minds made up and do not want to be confused with the facts! there is no greater way for you to remain in ignorance than to believe that you already know all the facts. and in your case, you are woefully ignorant of what the new testament says on this subject!
But if you refuse to read the study: then there is no point in carrying on a conversation with you. as no matter how many facts i give, and no matter how much reasoning i give to show you the truth: you will reject it all! and hold on to the error that you willfully choose to walk in! Thus neither i, nor anyone else can help you!

have a great day.

David

Please read the passages I posted

paul did not contradict those passages,

woefully ignorant huh? You do not know me at all,, maybe your true self is showing

 

[Grandpa]

My friend. it is not a matter of what YOU choose to believe. The scribs and pharisees chose to beleive something about the scriptures that was not true! and they went to hell for it! they were masters of the old testament. yet they did not have saving faith. What you choose to believe therefor is of utmost importance! God has given to us His will in the scriptures! If we choose to ignore that will, and ignore His instructions and believe whatever suits us instead: we will go to Hell! just as the unrepentant scribes and pharisees went to Hell! We must conform our lives and doctrines to what the bible says! and not try to fit the bible into what we choose to want to believe! for if we do the later and not the former: we most certainly will go to Hell! We must with all diligence study the word of God; being workmen that need not to be ashamed: rightly dividing the word of truth! God will not condemn us for true ignorance! but he will condemn us for wilful ignorance! As son's of the King of kings: we have the duty to learn the laws of His kingdom and submit ourselves to them! For God will not have anyone in his kingdom who will not obey his laws! and his laws have been given to us in the bible!

David

It IS a matter of what you believe. But you may be right, you may not have a choice.

And you have shown what you believe. Regardless of all the evidence shown in the bible you choose to focus on YOU and what is required of YOU.

When you take this focus from yourself and place it in Christ instead you will begin to see the scriptures in a new light and in a new way.

 

[notuptome]

Yes i do have a close relationship with God. You are not in a position to juge that! I do speak with the authority of God on these isssues! I am a true elder in the body of Christ! it is God who taught me these things as i sat at his feet. It is jesus who said that we must forgive, bear fruit, and obey him in order to keep the salvation that he has given to us! If you reject the teaching that I have given through the Holy Spirit, you are not rejecting my teaching: but the Holy Spirits teaching! For the teaching attached to this is from the Holy Spirit!
I will pray that god will forgive you for speaking against one of his anointed ones!

David

I'm going to be polite and not laugh out loud.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Grandpa]

I'm going to be polite and not laugh out loud.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I missed that one.

Speaking against one of His Anointed Ones... lol How can you be an anointed one and not even understand the nature of your own Salvation?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


Maybe a study should be done on this??? lol

 

[Diakonos]

Who knew there would still be Judeizers around in 2020? Its because false doctrine doesn't die with the heretics.
Its doctrines of demons

 

[JaumeJ]

We must always distinguish between those who say they are Jews but are not, rather they are a synagogue of Sataqn and those who are truly Jews. But first and foremost, one should know what a Jew truly is.

 

[Runningman]

Who knew there would still be Judeizers around in 2020? Its because false doctrine doesn't die with the heretics.
Its doctrines of demons

They really need to check who they let in through the front door here.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

You need to learn the difference between salvation and sanctification

There’s hardly a difference at all when you plainly read the following verses. You can’t have one without the other in these passages:

Acts 20:32
[32] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Acts 26:18
[18] ...open their eyes... turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Romans 15:15-16
[15] Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, [16] That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.