Why do Dispensationalists teach Separation Theology?

[cv5]

Israel's presence in the land does not indicate dispensationalism is true.

It could relate to the end-time evangelism that is occurring even now.

Messianic Jews in Israel are evangelizing to non-believing Jews in Israel.

Like I said, there is NOTHING within amillennialism that negates the possibility of this evangelizing effort prior to Christ's return.

Your assumption is that dispensationalism is true, but it is simply an assumption.

I will also note that it has been way over 40 years since Israel was established. Typical dispensationalist teaching, related to Matthew 24, is that Christ would return within 40 years (one generation) of this event. It has been way past it..in fact about 30 years.

This has caused many dispensationalists to abandon their position, as more than one generation has elapsed.

And, contrary to your lies and slanders concerning me, I am not an Anti-Semitic person and I hope that a great number of Jews are saved. They are one of the least-evangelized groups on the planet. I think a large number will be saved, almost all of them, when Jesus returns. They will realize that he is the Messiah and will respond.

I want you to bring up your hateful lie about me to God in prayer and confess your sinfulness in this regard. I call upon you to repent of your lying claims. God knows the truth on this matter, and he knows I am not stupid enough to hate Jews. Any moron knows that Jesus himself was a Jew, so hatred of Jews is impossible for a real Christian united with Christ.

This "pre-gathering" is setting the stage for the 70th week of Daniel. Obviously. I beg you to prepare for the imminent return of Christ Jesus for His Church.

 

[cv5]

would recommend the book, A Case for Amillennialism, by Kim Riddlebarger, for a good understanding on this topic.

Dispensationalists are not even aware that there are other options, for the most part.

Here's what you must believe as a dispensationalist:

You must necessarily believe that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ’s second coming

You must necessarily believe that the natural creation will continue, beyond the time of Christ’s second coming, to be subjected to the curse imposed by the fall of man.

You must necessarily believe that the New Heavens and New Earth will not be introduced until 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

You must necessarily believe that unbelieving men and women will still have the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ for at least 1,000 years subsequent to his return.

You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally resurrected until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally judged and cast into eternal punishment until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

Here's an article which addresses the problems with each of these claims, by an ex-dispensationalist, Sam Storms.

By the way, the problem is not only with dispensationalists, it is a problem with historical premillennialism.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/...u-must-believe-if-you-are-a-premillennialist/

I could refer you to Rev 20, but why bother?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

By the way, the 144,000 are spiritual Israel..the Church..composed of both NT saints and OT saints.

Hmm, , that's why the "144,000 [12,000 of each of the tribes listed there (singular nation)]" are set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nations" (plural nations).

 

[KJV1611]

Hmm, , that's why the "144,000 [12,000 of each of the tribes listed there (singular nation)]" are set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nations" (plural nations).

Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

There's your 144,00 right there.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Did you read the supporting arguments?
[...]
Matthew 25 clearly teaches this too. At Jesus' return, the righteous and unrighteous will be separated at the general judgment. The righteous go into eternal life, and the wicked to eternal punishment.

There is no third group which goes into the Millennium as ordinary men.

It's not "AS ORDINARY MEN" that they enter the MK age, but as "THE RIGHTEOUS" (though in "mortal bodies").

Unless you believe there will be "GOATS" *UP IN Heaven*

This CONTEXT is speaking of the point in time of His "RETURN" to the earth, just as Luke 12:36-37,38,40-42 (and context) is, where it says, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal... "BLESSED" (the same "BLESSED" in about 8-10 others passages that also speak to THIS POINT in the CHRONOLOGY: His Second Coming to the earth).

This conflating of ideas/the chronology of events, comes (in part) due to mistaking the phrase "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" to mean "UP IN Heaven," which it does not.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

There's your 144,00 right there.

Are you equating this ^ with the "a great multitude... of all the nations" in vv.9,14? Or are you saying they are distinct from each other?

 

[cv5]

Hmm, , that's why the "144,000 [12,000 of each of the tribes listed there (singular nation)]" are set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nations" (plural nations).

These are not Christians, who are to be harmless. This is the OT/Israelite pattern and phenomenon, and these are re-commissioned chosen and believing Isrealites from the reconstituted regathered nation. No nation, no crisis, no end-time, no Second Coming. National Israel MUST EXIST as a precursory condition before the SC.

Rev 11

And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire. And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pita will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

 

[KJV1611]

Are you equating this ^ with the "a great multitude... of all the nations" in vv.9,14? Or are you saying they are distinct from each other?

I think Ezekiel is prophetic of Revelation 7:3.
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

 

[cv5]

It's not "AS ORDINARY MEN" that they enter the MK age, but as "THE RIGHTEOUS" (though in "mortal bodies").

Unless you believe there will be "GOATS" *UP IN Heaven*

This CONTEXT is speaking of the point in time of His "RETURN" to the earth, just as Luke 12:36-37,38,40-42 (and context) is, where it says, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal... "BLESSED" (the same "BLESSED" in about 8-10 others passages that also speak to THIS POINT in the CHRONOLOGY: His Second Coming to the earth).

This conflating of ideas/the chronology of events, comes (in part) due to mistaking the phrase "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" to mean "UP IN Heaven," which it does not.

Correct. Just as God spared Noah, Lot etc from temporal judgement, so will this earthly remnant.

 

[kaylagrl]

Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Romans 10:21 explains how God continually reached out to the national Israel and they were always disobedient and boastful towards God's grace. People that reject the grace of God ARE NOT God's chosen people.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

In Romans 11:1 Paul continues to prove this point in saying "Has God cast away his people". Note that it says HIS PEOPLE. It's not talking about the grace rejecting disobedient boastful Jews, they are not his chosen people. Paul was one of the chosen Jews, and he is reaffirming that although God is casting away the grace rejecting disobedient boastful Jews, of which Paul's earthly lineage is a part of, he IS NOT casting away his chosen people just because they were Jews.

CC we need a "disagree" button rather than dislike. They don't mean the same thing. One is an opinion the other can be taken as an insult. Anyhow... on to Romans.

The Remnant of Israel
11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[c]

9 And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”[d]


Ingrafted Branches

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I think Ezekiel is prophetic of Revelation 7:3.
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

That's fine.

But what I am asking is, are the "144,000 servants of our God" (Rev7:3) the SAME people AS the "a great multitude... of all the nations" (Rev7:9,14) ?? Are they the SAME PEOPLE, or are they DISTINCT?

(this doesn't really pertain to how the 144,000 are the prophetic realization of the Ezek9 passage [if they are--that's not the point I'm getting at, here]... I want to know if you think the Rev7:9,14 people ARE THOSE SAME PEOPLE [same as the 144,000], or whether you believe they are DISTINCT FROM them)

 

[KJV1611]

CC we need a "disagree" button rather than dislike. They don't mean the same thing. One is an opinion the other can be taken as an insult. Anyhow... on to Romans.

The Remnant of Israel
11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

I didn't take offence Kaylagirl, I love all my CC friends and I believe it's mutual... we just have different views

I'm willing to go through this verse by verse I that's something you would want to do.

My first point or question is - Was Paul chosen by God because he was a Jew or did God choose him just like he chose us?

If you think God chose him just like he chose us, then Paul is God's chosen and not the Jews. Do you agree with this?

 

[KJV1611]

That's fine.

But what I am asking is, are the "144,000 servants of our God" (Rev7:3) the SAME people AS the "a great multitude... of all the nations" (Rev7:9,14) ?? Are they the SAME PEOPLE, or are they DISTINCT?

(this doesn't really pertain to how the 144,000 are the prophetic realization of the Ezek9 passage [if they are--that's not the point I'm getting at, here]... I want to know if you think the Rev7:9,14 people ARE THOSE SAME PEOPLE [same as the 144,000], or whether you believe they are DISTINCT FROM them)

Neither of those (Rev 7:9 and Rev7:14) are the 144,000. These are the ones that arose with Christ at his resurrection.

 

[kaylagrl]

I didn't take offence Kaylagirl, I love all my CC friends and I believe it's mutual... we just have different views

I'm willing to go through this verse by verse I that's something you would want to do.

My first point or question is - Was Paul chosen by God because he was a Jew or did God choose him just like he chose us?

If you think God chose him just like he chose us, then Paul is God's chosen and not the Jews. Do you agree with this?

I'm gonna throw a curve ball, my answer is both

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Neither of those (Rev 7:9 and Rev7:14) are the 144,000.

Okay, so you ARE distinguishing the "144,000" from the "a great multitude... of all the nations".

That was my question, THANKS. = )

These are the ones that arose with Christ at his resurrection.

Okay, so you are saying that this "a great multitude... of all the nations" are the "many" that "arose," at the time of Jesus' resurrection who then "went into the holy city, and appeared unto many" and this all followed (according to you) their having "come out of THE GREAT tribulation," and that they are NOW [doing this]: "‘They are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple;" which Revelation 15:8 states, " no one was able to enter into the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed"... so you're saying they "arose" after the SEVEN LAST PLAGUES (i.e. the VIALS/BOWLS judgments), right??



I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint, which disregards the "CHRONOLOGY" as much as the "Amill-teachings" viewpoint does.

 

[KJV1611]

I'm gonna throw a curve ball, my answer is both

Well I'm gonna throw that curve ball right back at ya lol. I agree it's both too although for different reasons than you. So let's continue where we left off.

The Remnant of Israel
11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Do you think that the ones who bowed the knee to Baal were God's chosen people? If so why did God chose them.... for what purpose?

 

[cv5]

CC we need a "disagree" button rather than dislike. They don't mean the same thing. One is an opinion the other can be taken as an insult. Anyhow... on to Romans.

The Remnant of Israel
11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[c]

9 And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”[d]


Ingrafted Branches

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Yes indeed Amen. Israel has been preserved by grace, are now in the land, and very soon now the nation WILL REPENT, receive their Messiah as King, and will enjoy His blessed reign along with the resurrected David who will ALSO sit in an earthy throne to reign with Him.

 

[cv5]

Well I'm gonna throw that curve ball right back at ya lol. I agree it's both too although for different reasons than you. So let's continue where we left off.



Do you think that the ones who bowed the knee to Baal were God's chosen people? If so why did God chose them.... for what purpose?

"....Do you think....?" sounds like Satanic hissing to me bub. And from you...very commonly used.

 

[KJV1611]

Okay, so you are saying that this "a great multitude... of all the nations" are the "many" that "arose," at the time of Jesus' resurrection who then "went into the holy city, and appeared unto many" and this all followed (according to you) their having "come out of THE GREAT tribulation," and that they are NOW [doing this]: "‘They are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple;" which Revelation 15:8 states, " no one was able to enter into the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed"... so you're saying they "arose" after the SEVEN LAST PLAGUES (i.e. the VIALS/BOWLS judgments), right??



I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint, which disregards the "CHRONOLOGY" as much as the "Amill-teachings" viewpoint does.

I only understand Revelation up to chapter 10 so I can't really comment about Revelation 15:8.

 

[cv5]

I think Ezekiel is prophetic of Revelation 7:3.
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Disagree. The early chapters of Ezekiel pertain to immediate judgement via Gods servant Nebuchadnezzar. Ezekiel 24 specifies THE EXACT DAY of the start of the 70 year judgement.
Ezekiel 34 and onward is futurist.