Has Christ always existed or was he born in Bethlehem?

[Blik]

This question was a key one to be decided by the Nicene Council and it is still debated today. Many believe Christ gave us the age of grace, it did not exist before. At the same time, they say Christ is one with the Father.

Do you think Christ was begotten of the Father out of the Father’s own essence so Christ always was, as seems to be what we read in the gospel of John, or do you believe Christ was first born in Bethlehem?

On the truth of how Christ really is establishes the validity of the OT. Was Christ part of the sacrificial system?

 

[Magenta]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

 

[tourist]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

You provided the spiritually definitive answer.

 

[Whispered]

This question was a key one to be decided by the Nicene Council and it is still debated today. Many believe Christ gave us the age of grace, it did not exist before. At the same time, they say Christ is one with the Father.

Do you think Christ was begotten of the Father out of the Father’s own essence so Christ always was, as seems to be what we read in the gospel of John, or do you believe Christ was first born in Bethlehem?

On the truth of how Christ really is establishes the validity of the OT. Was Christ part of the sacrificial system?

I think when Jesus said He and the Father are one, that it tells us God is Christ and Christ is God. He was in the beginning before anything was created at all.

The fleshly form God assumed in order to deliver His new covenant as prophesied within and of the old appeared as a Jewish man who observed Jewish customs. And as such He was believed when He delivered his parables and the testament of Salvation to His people.

 

[Dino246]

This question was a key one to be decided by the Nicene Council and it is still debated today. Many believe Christ gave us the age of grace, it did not exist before. At the same time, they say Christ is one with the Father.

Do you think Christ was begotten of the Father out of the Father’s own essence so Christ always was, as seems to be what we read in the gospel of John, or do you believe Christ was first born in Bethlehem?

On the truth of how Christ really is establishes the validity of the OT. Was Christ part of the sacrificial system?

Jesus said in John 17, "Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

Paul said of Jesus in 1 Corinthians 10, "Our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, ... and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ."

Jesus existed with God the Father before the world was created. His human existence began when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary.

 

[Blik]

I think when Jesus said He and the Father are one, that it tells us God is Christ and Christ is God. He was in the beginning before anything was created at all.

The fleshly form God assumed in order to deliver His new covenant as prophesied within and of the old appeared as a Jewish man who observed Jewish customs. And as such He was believed when He delivered his parables and the testament of Salvation to His people.

God in His glory and perfection gave the Jewish customs as part of His perfection to be a symbol to the people of the world as in spirit and truth. He gave orders to watch food, both of the mind and flesh, that did not come from garbage. All the forbidden foods were from animals who lived on garbage, yet God told us what went in the stomach was only eliminated but we know what goes in the mind stays there. Circumcision was to remind them they belonged to God. When the people used the physical acts as the obedience and didn't listen to the reason, God took the orders away and gave the Holy Spirit to tell His people His ways. God remained the same, the message remained the same.

God does not give the Jews one order and gentiles a different one, all people are the same to God. God used the Jews to show all people His ways and gave them blessings as thanks, but God's orders and love is for all with no other distinctions.

The God before Christ and the God after Christ is the very same God. God did not change when Christ came although salvation was fulfilled. These posts say so, but often the beliefs do not follow.

 

[Whispered]

God in His glory and perfection gave the Jewish customs as part of His perfection to be a symbol to the people of the world as in spirit and truth. He gave orders to watch food, both of the mind and flesh, that did not come from garbage. All the forbidden foods were from animals who lived on garbage, yet God told us what went in the stomach was only eliminated but we know what goes in the mind stays there. Circumcision was to remind them they belonged to God. When the people used the physical acts as the obedience and didn't listen to the reason, God took the orders away and gave the Holy Spirit to tell His people His ways. God remained the same, the message remained the same.

God does not give the Jews one order and gentiles a different one, all people are the same to God. God used the Jews to show all people His ways and gave them blessings as thanks, but God's orders and love is for all with no other distinctions.

The God before Christ and the God after Christ is the very same God. God did not change when Christ came although salvation was fulfilled. These posts say so, but often the beliefs do not follow.

The truth of God through Christ has been corrupted over the centuries likely having that origin begin in what is termed, the Age of Shadows, spanning from 68A.D to 100A.D. . Not just with the introduction of the Trinity doctrine that Jesus never taught, but with the casting of aspersions on the Jewish origin of the Gospel message.

How Jewish Christians Became Christians
Three views of the Jewish-Christian schism.
BY LAWRENCE H. SCHIFFMAN

 

[GaryA]

Perhaps this may help:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...of-god-word-father-son-and-the-trinity.72792/

 

[Blik]

The truth of God through Christ has been corrupted over the centuries likely having that origin begin in what is termed, the Age of Shadows, spanning from 68A.D to 100A.D. . Not just with the introduction of the Trinity doctrine that Jesus never taught, but with the casting of aspersions on the Jewish origin of the Gospel message.

How Jewish Christians Became Christians
Three views of the Jewish-Christian schism.
BY LAWRENCE H. SCHIFFMAN

I do not understand your statement that trinity doctrine is not of Christ. Doesn't scripture teach us the each is God and God is one? Isn't that the "trinity system"?

I agree that the distortions we have of scripture originated after the destruction of the temple, when most Jews were murdered and gentiles became the leaders of Christianity. They had no knowledge of the word as the Jewish leaders had and they mixed up Christ's teachings with being against Jewish culture. They had been so immersed in the occult of idol worship for so many centuries that they had a hard time separating the two, something the Jews were able to do. We still accept pieces of the occult in Christianity, as the roots of our holidays show. But this process went into full force after the second war with Rome in 132 and lasted many hundreds of years as a study of the records of the Christian councils of those times show. Many more Jews were killed by that war than the one in AD70 or so.

 

[CherieR]

This question was a key one to be decided by the Nicene Council and it is still debated today. Many believe Christ gave us the age of grace, it did not exist before. At the same time, they say Christ is one with the Father.

Do you think Christ was begotten of the Father out of the Father’s own essence so Christ always was, as seems to be what we read in the gospel of John, or do you believe Christ was first born in Bethlehem?

On the truth of how Christ really is establishes the validity of the OT. Was Christ part of the sacrificial system?

I believe Jesus always was and also was born in Bethlehem. He is the same God in both the Old and the New Testament. So the words of God you read in all the Old Testament, are also the words of the Lord Jesus.

I believe the sacrificial system foreshowed what Jesus would do for us by paying for our sins on the cross so we may be forgiven and saved through faith in him.

 

[Nehemiah6]

This question was a key one to be decided by the Nicene Council and it is still debated today.

Do you think Christ was begotten of the Father out of the Father’s own essence so Christ always was, as seems to be what we read in the gospel of John, or do you believe Christ was first born in Bethlehem?

All one has to do is read and study Micah 5:2 carefully to see that Christ is BOTH eternal God as well as the one born in Bethlehem. He chose to become a Man.

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall He [Christ] come forth unto me [the Father] that is to be Ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Many believe Christ gave us the age of grace, it did not exist before.

All one has to do is read John 1:17 to see that this is true.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

At the same time, they say Christ is one with the Father.

This is also true. All one has to do is read John 10:30 to see that this is true.
I and my Father are one.

On the truth of how Christ really is establishes the validity of the OT. Was Christ part of the sacrificial system?

How could Christ be a part of the sacrificial system? He OVERSAW the sacrificial system.

 

[tantalon]

This question was a key one to be decided by the Nicene Council and it is still debated today. Many believe Christ gave us the age of grace, it did not exist before. At the same time, they say Christ is one with the Father.

Do you think Christ was begotten of the Father out of the Father’s own essence so Christ always was, as seems to be what we read in the gospel of John, or do you believe Christ was first born in Bethlehem?

On the truth of how Christ really is establishes the validity of the OT. Was Christ part of the sacrificial system?

Christ is the TITLE of the Saviour. That title existed before the foundation of the world as a plan of God for redemption of mankind. Jesus, the man, was born in Bethlehem and as John 1: 14 states, the ETERNAL WORD was made flesh and dwelt among us.

 

[CS1]

This question was a key one to be decided by the Nicene Council and it is still debated today. Many believe Christ gave us the age of grace, it did not exist before. At the same time, they say Christ is one with the Father.

Do you think Christ was begotten of the Father out of the Father’s own essence so Christ always was, as seems to be what we read in the gospel of John, or do you believe Christ was first born in Bethlehem?

On the truth of how Christ really is establishes the validity of the OT. Was Christ part of the sacrificial system?

The Spirit of Christ is eternal and has always been.

 

[MattforJesus]

This question was a key one to be decided by the Nicene Council and it is still debated today. Many believe Christ gave us the age of grace, it did not exist before. At the same time, they say Christ is one with the Father.

Do you think Christ was begotten of the Father out of the Father’s own essence so Christ always was, as seems to be what we read in the gospel of John, or do you believe Christ was first born in Bethlehem?

On the truth of how Christ really is establishes the validity of the OT. Was Christ part of the sacrificial system?

The Bible says that grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

There was grace in the Old Testament but only to benefit on earth, where the grace that Jesus gave is spiritual.

The Bible says Jesus has no beginning as God, so He could of not been begotten of the Father.

But the child Christ Jesus was begotten of the Father, and He is the only begotten Son of God for He is the only human to be conceived by the Spirit, where the saints are adopted in to the Kingdom.

Jesus is part of the sacrificial system, but animals only covered sins, where Jesus takes away sins completely.

The Bible says there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

The man Christ Jesus is our Savior, for only a sinless man can reconcile the world unto God, but no man is sinless so God manifest Himself in flesh, and reconciled the world unto Himself in the person of Jesus Christ, God and man in harmony.

God's name reveals His character and blessings to mankind, which Jehovah represents physical deliverance, and physical blessings, and then God used compound names of Jehovah to reveal a different character of Him that was a blessing to people.

Jesus is a compound name of Jehovah, and represents spiritual salvation.

The name Jesus, and Christ, only refer to this creation, and not before it.

Which Jesus has a name that no person knows but Him.

 

[wattie]

This question was a key one to be decided by the Nicene Council and it is still debated today. Many believe Christ gave us the age of grace, it did not exist before. At the same time, they say Christ is one with the Father.

Do you think Christ was begotten of the Father out of the Father’s own essence so Christ always was, as seems to be what we read in the gospel of John, or do you believe Christ was first born in Bethlehem?

On the truth of how Christ really is establishes the validity of the OT. Was Christ part of the sacrificial system?

God has been a trinity being always. Father, Son and Holy Spirit co-eternally existing since before creation.

'Let US make man in our image' in Genesis
'All things were created through Him, and without Him nothing was made' . . This is about Jesus


There are a lot of other verses showing Jesus around b4 being human in the flesh.

I read about the begotten part of Jesus.. being not 'born out of and not previously existing' but more like

'Supreme heir'

 

[Blik]

The Bible says that grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

There was grace in the Old Testament but only to benefit on earth, where the grace that Jesus gave is spiritual.

The Bible says Jesus has no beginning as God, so He could of not been begotten of the Father.

But the child Christ Jesus was begotten of the Father, and He is the only begotten Son of God for He is the only human to be conceived by the Spirit, where the saints are adopted in to the Kingdom.

Jesus is part of the sacrificial system, but animals only covered sins, where Jesus takes away sins completely.

The Bible says there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

The man Christ Jesus is our Savior, for only a sinless man can reconcile the world unto God, but no man is sinless so God manifest Himself in flesh, and reconciled the world unto Himself in the person of Jesus Christ, God and man in harmony.

God's name reveals His character and blessings to mankind, which Jehovah represents physical deliverance, and physical blessings, and then God used compound names of Jehovah to reveal a different character of Him that was a blessing to people.

Jesus is a compound name of Jehovah, and represents spiritual salvation.

The name Jesus, and Christ, only refer to this creation, and not before it.

Which Jesus has a name that no person knows but Him.

I don't think you understand the similarities between the sacrificial system and the crucifixion of Christ. It was not the blood of animals that gave salvation before Christ, it was Christ as eternal God. It is explained in Lev. 1:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.

It was dependent on faith as it is for us, but we have Christ explained and they were only told salvation required blood.

 

[Dave-L]

This question was a key one to be decided by the Nicene Council and it is still debated today. Many believe Christ gave us the age of grace, it did not exist before. At the same time, they say Christ is one with the Father.

Do you think Christ was begotten of the Father out of the Father’s own essence so Christ always was, as seems to be what we read in the gospel of John, or do you believe Christ was first born in Bethlehem?

On the truth of how Christ really is establishes the validity of the OT. Was Christ part of the sacrificial system?

Here's what you need to know. Jesus the man was different from us in one major way. We are body, soul, and spirit according to Paul. Jesus is comprised of body, soul, and God. All of the trinity is present in him. but he speaks through the person of the eternal Son, who is forever the Son in the eternal trinity.

 

[Whispered]

I do not understand your statement that trinity doctrine is not of Christ. Doesn't scripture teach us the each is God and God is one? Isn't that the "trinity system"?

I agree that the distortions we have of scripture originated after the destruction of the temple, when most Jews were murdered and gentiles became the leaders of Christianity. They had no knowledge of the word as the Jewish leaders had and they mixed up Christ's teachings with being against Jewish culture. They had been so immersed in the occult of idol worship for so many centuries that they had a hard time separating the two, something the Jews were able to do. We still accept pieces of the occult in Christianity, as the roots of our holidays show. But this process went into full force after the second war with Rome in 132 and lasted many hundreds of years as a study of the records of the Christian councils of those times show. Many more Jews were killed by that war than the one in AD70 or so.

The traditional Trinity doctrine teaches that there are three separate and distinct persons. God the Father, Jesus the Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Has Christ always existed or was he born in Bethlehem?

This is a very, very, very important topic! Because if you get Jesus wrong, it doesn't matter what you get right! I didn't know this until 2012 that Jesus is called the Word; I also thought that He didn't exist until He was born as a baby in Bethlehem.

Blik, the Holy Spirit moved upon you to start this forum. Thank you for obeying the Holy Spirit for this important subject on sanctification! Amen

The Book of John

“(A.D. 26)

THE DEITY OF CHRIST”

“1 In the beginning (does not infer that Christ as God had a beginning, because as God He had no beginning, but rather refers to the time of Creation [Gen. 1:1]) was the Word (the Holy Spirit through John describes Jesus as “the Eternal Logos”), and the Word was with God (“was in relationship with God,” and expresses the idea of the Trinity), and the Word was God (meaning that He did not cease to be God during the Incarnation; He “was” and “is” God from eternity past to eternity future).

2 The same was in the beginning with God (this very Person was in eternity with God; there’s only one God, but manifested in three Persons — God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit).

3 All things were made by Him (all things came into being through Him; it refers to every item of Creation one by one, rather than all things regarded in totality); and without Him was not any thing made that was made (nothing, not even one single thing, was made independently of His cooperation and volition).

4 In Him was Life (presents Jesus, the Eternal Logos, as the first cause); and the Life was the Light of men (He Alone is the Life Source of Light; if one doesn’t know Christ, one is in darkness).

5 And the Light shines in darkness (speaks of the Incarnation of Christ, and His coming into this world; His “Light,” because it is derived from His Life, drives out “darkness”); and the darkness comprehended it not (should have been translated, “apprehended it not”; it means that Satan, even though he tried with all his might, could not stop “the Light”; today it shines all over the world, and one day soon, there will be nothing left but that “Light”).

JOHN THE BAPTIST
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness (speaks of the Mission of the Prophet), to bear witness of the Light (spoke of Jesus and only Jesus), that all men through Him might believe (presents that Jesus is not only for Israel, but also for the entirety of the world).

8 He was not that Light (John the Baptist was not the Light), but was sent to bear witness of that Light (presents the sum total that man can do).

THE INCARNATION
9 That was the True Light (there are many false lights; Jesus is the only True Light), which lighteth every man who comes into the world (if man is to find Light, it will be only in Christ, and it is for “every man”).

10 He was in the world (the Eternal Logos, the “Creator”), and the world was made by Him (as it was originally created before the fall of Lucifer and the Fall of man), and the world knew Him not (the world cannot know Christ by wisdom, but only by Revelation).

11 He came unto His Own (the world in general, but more specifically to the Jews), and His Own received Him not (He came as the Heir unto His Own Possessions [Mat. 21:38], but His Own servants did not receive Him; on the contrary, they killed Him).

12 But as many as received Him (some did receive Him, and some do receive Him), to them gave He power to become the sons of God (constitutes one of the greatest Promises in the Word of God), even to them who believe on His Name (Faith in Christ and in what He has done for us at the Cross alone can make a person a “son or daughter of God”):

13 Which were born, not of blood (means that men become God’s Children not by natural birth), nor of the will of the flesh (man cannot earn Salvation, it is a free gift, received upon Faith), nor of the will of man (refers to man’s religious efforts), but of God (Salvation is not at all of man, but altogether of God).

14 And the Word was made flesh (refers to the Incarnation, “God becoming man”), and dwelt among us (refers to Jesus, although Perfect, not holding Himself aloft from all others, but rather lived as all men, even a peasant), (and we beheld His Glory, the Glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father,) (speaks of His Deity, although hidden from the eyes of the merely curious; while Christ laid aside the expression of His Deity, He never lost the possession of His Deity) full of Grace and Truth (as “flesh,” proclaimed His Humanity, “Grace and Truth” His Deity).

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Has Christ always existed or was he born in Bethlehem?

This is a very, very, very important topic! Because if you get Jesus wrong, it doesn't matter what you get right! I didn't know this until 2012 that Jesus is called the Word; I also thought that He didn't exist until He was born as a baby in Bethlehem.

Blik, the Holy Spirit moved upon you to start this forum. Thank you for obeying the Holy Spirit for this important subject on sanctification! Amen

The Book of John

“(A.D. 26)

THE DEITY OF CHRIST”

“1 In the beginning (does not infer that Christ as God had a beginning, because as God He had no beginning, but rather refers to the time of Creation [Gen. 1:1]) was the Word (the Holy Spirit through John describes Jesus as “the Eternal Logos”), and the Word was with God (“was in relationship with God,” and expresses the idea of the Trinity), and the Word was God (meaning that He did not cease to be God during the Incarnation; He “was” and “is” God from eternity past to eternity future).

2 The same was in the beginning with God (this very Person was in eternity with God; there’s only one God, but manifested in three Persons — God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit).

3 All things were made by Him (all things came into being through Him; it refers to every item of Creation one by one, rather than all things regarded in totality); and without Him was not any thing made that was made (nothing, not even one single thing, was made independently of His cooperation and volition).

4 In Him was Life (presents Jesus, the Eternal Logos, as the first cause); and the Life was the Light of men (He Alone is the Life Source of Light; if one doesn’t know Christ, one is in darkness).

5 And the Light shines in darkness (speaks of the Incarnation of Christ, and His coming into this world; His “Light,” because it is derived from His Life, drives out “darkness”); and the darkness comprehended it not (should have been translated, “apprehended it not”; it means that Satan, even though he tried with all his might, could not stop “the Light”; today it shines all over the world, and one day soon, there will be nothing left but that “Light”).

JOHN THE BAPTIST
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness (speaks of the Mission of the Prophet), to bear witness of the Light (spoke of Jesus and only Jesus), that all men through Him might believe (presents that Jesus is not only for Israel, but also for the entirety of the world).

8 He was not that Light (John the Baptist was not the Light), but was sent to bear witness of that Light (presents the sum total that man can do).

THE INCARNATION
9 That was the True Light (there are many false lights; Jesus is the only True Light), which lighteth every man who comes into the world (if man is to find Light, it will be only in Christ, and it is for “every man”).

10 He was in the world (the Eternal Logos, the “Creator”), and the world was made by Him (as it was originally created before the fall of Lucifer and the Fall of man), and the world knew Him not (the world cannot know Christ by wisdom, but only by Revelation).

11 He came unto His Own (the world in general, but more specifically to the Jews), and His Own received Him not (He came as the Heir unto His Own Possessions [Mat. 21:38], but His Own servants did not receive Him; on the contrary, they killed Him).

12 But as many as received Him (some did receive Him, and some do receive Him), to them gave He power to become the sons of God (constitutes one of the greatest Promises in the Word of God), even to them who believe on His Name (Faith in Christ and in what He has done for us at the Cross alone can make a person a “son or daughter of God”):

13 Which were born, not of blood (means that men become God’s Children not by natural birth), nor of the will of the flesh (man cannot earn Salvation, it is a free gift, received upon Faith), nor of the will of man (refers to man’s religious efforts), but of God (Salvation is not at all of man, but altogether of God).

14 And the Word was made flesh (refers to the Incarnation, “God becoming man”), and dwelt among us (refers to Jesus, although Perfect, not holding Himself aloft from all others, but rather lived as all men, even a peasant), (and we beheld His Glory, the Glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father,) (speaks of His Deity, although hidden from the eyes of the merely curious; while Christ laid aside the expression of His Deity, He never lost the possession of His Deity) full of Grace and Truth (as “flesh,” proclaimed His Humanity, “Grace and Truth” His Deity).

THE TESTIMONY
15 John bear witness of Him (John the Baptist was raised up for this very purpose), and cried, saying, This was He of Whom I spoke (concerns the Ministry of John regarding the Person of Jesus), He who comes after me is preferred before me (should have been translated, “existed before me”): for He was before me (once again, a testimony to the Deity of Christ; as God, He has always been).

16 And of His fulness have all we received (John has told us Who Jesus is, now he tells us what He does), and Grace for Grace (should have been translated, “Grace upon Grace;” this is the provision of His Love heaped one upon another in this supply of His People’s needs).

17 For the Law was given by Moses, but Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ (proclaims Him as the Representative Law-keeper for all humanity, i.e., to all who will believe; the Law manifested man [full of wickedness]; the Son manifested God [full of goodness]).

18 No man has seen God at any time (better translated, “No man has ever comprehended or experienced God at any time in all His fullness”); the Only Begotten Son (Jesus Christ and the Incarnation, Who Alone could perfectly declare the Father), which is in the bosom of the Father (proclaims the most intimate and loving fellowship with the Father), He has declared Him (in essence, God the Father and God the Son are One).

19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent Priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who are you? (At the time, some thought that John the Baptist was the Messiah.)

20 And he confessed (there was absolutely no hesitation in his confession regarding who he actually was, and above all, his mission), and denied not (he did not deny that some were calling him “Christ,” however, to not even the slightest degree did he encourage this and, in fact, grandly repudiates the rumor); but confessed, I am not the Christ (in the Greek actually says, “I, for my part, am not the Christ,” and is said with emphasis).