Has Christ always existed or was he born in Bethlehem?

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Sep 3, 2016
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#21
THE TESTIMONY
15 John bear witness of Him (John the Baptist was raised up for this very purpose), and cried, saying, This was He of Whom I spoke (concerns the Ministry of John regarding the Person of Jesus), He who comes after me is preferred before me (should have been translated, “existed before me”): for He was before me (once again, a testimony to the Deity of Christ; as God, He has always been).


16 And of His fulness have all we received (John has told us Who Jesus is, now he tells us what He does), and Grace for Grace (should have been translated, “Grace upon Grace;” this is the provision of His Love heaped one upon another in this supply of His People’s needs).

17 For the Law was given by Moses, but Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ (proclaims Him as the Representative Law-keeper for all humanity, i.e., to all who will believe; the Law manifested man [full of wickedness]; the Son manifested God [full of goodness]).

18 No man has seen God at any time (better translated, “No man has ever comprehended or experienced God at any time in all His fullness”); the Only Begotten Son (Jesus Christ and the Incarnation, Who Alone could perfectly declare the Father), which is in the bosom of the Father (proclaims the most intimate and loving fellowship with the Father), He has declared Him (in essence, God the Father and God the Son are One).

19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent Priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who are you? (At the time, some thought that John the Baptist was the Messiah.)

20 And he confessed (there was absolutely no hesitation in his confession regarding who he actually was, and above all, his mission), and denied not (he did not deny that some were calling him “Christ,” however, to not even the slightest degree did he encourage this and, in fact, grandly repudiates the rumor); but confessed, I am not the Christ (in the Greek actually says, “I, for my part, am not the Christ,” and is said with emphasis).
21 And they asked him, What then? Are you Elijah? (Malachi had predicted the coming again from Heaven of Elijah the Prophet [Mal. 4:5].) And he said, I am not (presents a categorical negative; some of the Jews were insinuating that He was the actual reincarnation of Elijah). Are you that Prophet? (This spoke of the Prophet mentioned by Moses in Deut. 18:15-18. This was the Messiah. So again, they asked him if he was the Messiah?) And he answered, No.

22 Then said they unto him, Who are you? that we may give an answer to them who sent us (they were not really seeking proper information, or the Truth about the matter, but rather desired that he claim something of which they could accuse him). What say you of yourself? (His answer is extremely revealing!)

23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness (is taken from Isa. 40:3), Make straight the Way of the Lord, as said the Prophet Isaiah (proclaims his mission as the first phrase proclaims his identity).

24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees (the Holy Spirit is careful to delineate the source of these questions; the opposition now begins).

25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why do you baptize then, if you be not that Christ, nor Elijah, neither that Prophet? (They were indignant that John not only baptized without ecclesiastical authority, but baptized contrary to the practice of the Pharisees. In other words, he had not asked nor sought their permission, nor did it seem that he cared whether they agreed or not!)

26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water (meaning that it was but a temporary symbol of the true, abiding, and effectual baptism of the One Who would baptize with the Holy Spirit): but there stands One among you, Whom you know not (points to their spiritual ignorance; Christ was in their very midst, and they did not know!);

27 He it is (the Messiah is already here, even though you do not know Him, and He, as stated, is not me), Who coming after me is preferred before me (Who existed before me, in fact, has existed eternally), Whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose (by comparison to Christ, the greatest Prophet born of woman labels himself, and rightly so!).

28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing (probably not far from Jericho).


29 The next day (refers to the day after John had been questioned by the emissaries from the Sanhedrin) John sees Jesus coming unto him (is, no doubt, after the Baptism of Jesus, and the temptation in the wilderness), and said, Behold the Lamb of God (proclaims Jesus as the Sacrifice for sin, in fact, the Sin-Offering, Whom all the multiple millions of offered lambs had represented), which takes away the sin of the world (animal blood could only cover sin, it could not take it away; but Jesus offering Himself as the Perfect Sacrifice took away the sin of the world; He not only cleansed acts of sin, but, as well, addressed the root cause [Col. 2:14-15]).

30 This is He of Whom I said (proclaims John making a positive identification; it is the One Who “takes away the sin of the world”), After me comes a Man which is preferred before me (affirms His essential Humanity): for He was before me (affirms His essential Deity).

31 And I knew Him not (doesn’t mean that he was not acquainted with Christ, but that he was not to introduce Christ until the Holy Spirit said so): but that He should be made manifest to Israel (means that at a certain time, and not before, Jesus was to be introduced to Israel as the Messiah, which John carried out exactly as led), therefore am I come baptizing with water (proclaims that which the Holy Spirit told him to do).

32 And John bear record (means that this is exactly what the Holy Spirit said would happen, concerning the identity of Jesus as the Messiah), saying, I saw the Spirit descending from Heaven like a dove (we must come to the conclusion that John saw something, which was the Holy Spirit; Luke recorded, “descending in a bodily shape like a Dove upon Him,” [Lk. 3:22]; we must conclude from these statements that the Holy Spirit has a Spirit Body of some nature), and it abode upon Him (the Spirit coming upon Him signaled the beginning of His Ministry).

33 And I knew Him not (is used the second time by John, and with purpose; the Holy Spirit wants all to know that John’s introduction of Jesus as the Messiah was not according to the flesh, i.e., personal knowledge, circumstances, etc., but rather by Revelation from on High; no one can really know Jesus, unless revealed by the Holy Spirit): but He Who sent me to baptize with water (telling us that Water Baptism as instituted by John was not that Prophet’s idea at all, but rather was given to him by Revelation from God), the same said unto me, Upon Whom you shall see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him (was to be the Revelation from God, which John was to heed, and he did), the same is He which baptizes with the Holy Spirit (proclaims what Jesus would do after His Death and Resurrection; the Cross would make this possible!).

34 And I saw, and bear record that this is the Son of God (John the Baptist had followed his instructions to the letter, and according to the Revelation, he knew without doubt that Jesus was the Son of God).

Excerpt From
The Expositor's Study Bible
Jimmy Swaggart
https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-expositors-study-bible/id399697870
This material may be protected by copyright.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#22
Has Christ always existed or was he born in Bethlehem?

This is a very, very, very important topic! Because if you get Jesus wrong, it doesn't matter what you get right! I didn't know this until 2012 that Jesus is called the Word; I also thought that He didn't exist until He was born as a baby in Bethlehem.
Thanks!! You are picking up on that I feel led.

I seems to me that knowing about Christ means understanding the OT, and that is very important to the growth of our spirits. Constantine wanted Christianity to be a new religion rather than Christianity a source of truth. I see traces of that thought today, when it is believed that Christ was not eternal but new. Christ changed the world and it is easy to say Christ was the beginning, but Christ as a power from the dawn of our history puts Him in a new light and I am sure a factual one. This fact makes the Torah come to life and as a current post is bring out, the word is rightly divided.

We are in a fleshly world, but we will not be in this world forever, we have a life span living here. The spiritual world is hard for our flesh to understand but we must be born again so we can comprehend it and listen humbly and prayerfully. The Lord then uses our world of the flesh to help us understand the world He lives in and where we are going. He uses water to tell us of purity, salt to illustrate our spirit, feasts to help us be thankful for salvation. We need the Torah to help us with these fleshly symbols of the spirit.
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#23
The Lord then uses our world of the flesh to help us understand the world He lives in and where we are going. He uses water to tell us of purity, salt to illustrate our spirit, feasts to help us be thankful for salvation. We need the Torah to help us with these fleshly symbols of the spirit.
The Truth is we are united with Christ by faith. Literally, we are baptized into Christ, and then, in the mind of God, we are crucified with Him. God does not rehabilitate us, He eliminates us and then builds us spiritually from scratch, producing a new creation. So the sin factory is shut down as a result of my simple child-like faith in Jesus and what He did for me at Calvary.

“Set your affection on things above, not on things on the Earth. For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God (Col. 3:2-3).

“Dead with Christ” (3:3) — Peace.
“Risen with Christ” (3:1) — Power.
“Hidden with Christ” (3:3) — Preservation.

The short phrase, “For you are dead,” characterizes the Christian experience possibly better than anything that could be said. The Lord does not rehabilitate people, does not try to improve the old man, does not engage in moral evolution, etc. In Christ, and we speak of His Crucifixion, the Believer has died. Concerning this very thing, Paul also stated, “For he who is dead is freed from sin,” i.e., from domination by the Sin Nature (Rom. 6:7).
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#24
Every Chapter and verse (Jot and Tittle) in the Word of God is about, and has to be seen through faith in Christ and His Sacrificial work. Never forget that Jesus said that the volume (ALL) the Book (Scriptures) were written of Him (Psalm 40:7, Hebrews 10:7). He also in another place tells us the Scriptures are about Him (John 5:39). The Apostle Paul would continue to write the same things over and over to God’s people, because he knew the same grace and faith that saved them would be the only grace and faith that would carry them through to the end of the race. It did not become grievous for the Apostle to continually point to Jesus and His work at the cross, and to give the instructions to the church so they could continually express Christ in all they did.

Pastor Curtis
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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Oregon
#25
This question was a key one to be decided by the Nicene Council and it is still debated today. Many believe Christ gave us the age of grace, it did not exist before. At the same time, they say Christ is one with the Father.

Do you think Christ was begotten of the Father out of the Father’s own essence so Christ always was, as seems to be what we read in the gospel of John, or do you believe Christ was first born in Bethlehem?

On the truth of how Christ really is establishes the validity of the OT. Was Christ part of the sacrificial system?
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,893
1,084
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Oregon
#26
.
Has Christ always existed or was he born in Bethlehem?

According to Gen 1:3-27 and John 1:1-3, the cosmos-- all its forms of life,
matter, and energy --was created by God's voice. To my knowledge, the
cosmos wasn't created by the flesh that God's voice became per John 1:14,
viz; the cosmos wasn't created by a human being, rather, by a spirit being.

Most Christians readily consent that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully Man,
but many have difficulty discerning between the God and the Man; a
weakness which cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses are trained to exploit.

Some Christians even have difficulty discerning between Jesus and Christ
which, again, the Witnesses are trained to exploit.
_
 

tantalon

Active member
Oct 11, 2019
286
105
43
#27
.


According to Gen 1:3-27 and John 1:1-3, the cosmos-- all its forms of life,
matter, and energy --was created by God's voice. To my knowledge, the
cosmos wasn't created by the flesh that God's voice became per John 1:14,
viz; the cosmos wasn't created by a human being, rather, by a spirit being.


Most Christians readily consent that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully Man,
but many have difficulty discerning between the God and the Man; a
weakness which cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses are trained to exploit.


Some Christians even have difficulty discerning between Jesus and Christ
which, again, the Witnesses are trained to exploit.
_
I think you have the sense of it. One thing though, Gods' "voice" is the word(s) of God spoken, John 1: 1 and verse 14. In other words ONE God manifested through His Will, His Word and His Spirit.
 
Sep 14, 2019
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#28
This question was a key one to be decided by the Nicene Council and it is still debated today. Many believe Christ gave us the age of grace, it did not exist before. At the same time, they say Christ is one with the Father.

Do you think Christ was begotten of the Father out of the Father’s own essence so Christ always was, as seems to be what we read in the gospel of John, or do you believe Christ was first born in Bethlehem?

On the truth of how Christ really is establishes the validity of the OT. Was Christ part of the sacrificial system?
Bethlehem was when Christ's flesh (body) was conceived but he had a spiritual body before his birth that could take on multiple different forms.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#29
All these posts are about the spiritual body. Scripture tells us the physical world is good, we are told the way of the Lord gives joy and abundance. There was a whole body of religion saying only the spiritual was to be listened to and God said they were wrong. Yet all your posts have scripture backing. I am confused.

Doesn't scripture tell us (Col. 2:21) it is false prophets who tell us do not touch, do not taste, do not handle?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
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#30
He is the Bread from Heaven...from Heaven. Born in the House of Bread, Beit Lechem...

This is underscored in Revelation the Alef and the Tau or Alpha and Omega.

Once more underscored in Isaiah, in one quote 9:6.

Jesus was only in the flesh about 33 years however He has alwaysexissted having Created all that is, John Chapter 1.
 

EmethAlethia

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2014
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#31
This question was a key one to be decided by the Nicene Council and it is still debated today. Many believe Christ gave us the age of grace, it did not exist before. At the same time, they say Christ is one with the Father.

Do you think Christ was begotten of the Father out of the Father’s own essence so Christ always was, as seems to be what we read in the gospel of John, or do you believe Christ was first born in Bethlehem?

On the truth of how Christ really is establishes the validity of the OT. Was Christ part of the sacrificial system?
Php 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied Himself("Retained Nothing"), taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Php 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#32
Doesn't scripture tell us (Col. 2:21) it is false prophets who tell us do not touch, do not taste, do not handle?
No; that passage says nothing about "false prophets" at all.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#33
No; that passage says nothing about "false prophets" at all.














are you
No; that passage says nothing about "false prophets" at all.
Are you teaching that this letter was not addressing false prophets? Or do you say that the verse is isolated from the rest of the letter and that particular verse is not in keeping with the purpose of the letter. Please explain.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,596
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#34
are you
Are you teaching that this letter was not addressing false prophets? Or do you say that the verse is isolated from the rest of the letter and that particular verse is not in keeping with the purpose of the letter. Please explain.
I meant precisely what I said. There is no need to re-interpret it.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
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#35
I meant precisely what I said. There is no need to re-interpret it.
Then your reply has no meaning, it is not relating to the subject but only to an isolated verse you have not made part of the letter.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,596
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#36
Then your reply has no meaning, it is not relating to the subject but only to an isolated verse you have not made part of the letter.
Paul doesn't mention false prophets (or any kind, for that matter) anywhere in Colossians. Why would you think he's talking about false prophets in 2:21 then?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#37
Paul doesn't mention false prophets (or any kind, for that matter) anywhere in Colossians. Why would you think he's talking about false prophets in 2:21 then?
You are correct, there is no words of Paul stating it was false prophets, yet the letter was written because there was heresy in the church and scholars think that heresy was a form of Gnosticism. In the second chapter Paul says it is based on elemental forces of the world and not Christ. They are teaching not to handle, not touch, and not taste as the Gnostics do, teaching that only the spiritual has value and avoid all but the spiritual. God teaches he created the earth and it is good, to be joyful, and celebrate God.

This is false prophets teaching. Paul is saying don't listen to them, listen to
Christ.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,596
13,859
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#38
You are correct, there is no words of Paul stating it was false prophets, yet the letter was written because there was heresy in the church and scholars think that heresy was a form of Gnosticism. In the second chapter Paul says it is based on elemental forces of the world and not Christ. They are teaching not to handle, not touch, and not taste as the Gnostics do, teaching that only the spiritual has value and avoid all but the spiritual. God teaches he created the earth and it is good, to be joyful, and celebrate God.

This is false prophets teaching. Paul is saying don't listen to them, listen to
Christ.
Okay, I understand what you're saying. I still wouldn't use the term, "false prophets" because, unless they were prophesying, they weren't prophets at all, just false teachers. A false prophet is one who claims to prophesy, but does so falsely.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#39
Okay, I understand what you're saying. I still wouldn't use the term, "false prophets" because, unless they were prophesying, they weren't prophets at all, just false teachers. A false prophet is one who claims to prophesy, but does so falsely.
Oh. I understood that in bible times they used the word prophets for teachers of the word, and I used this word that way instead of as we think of prophets.

I'll have to get my head into the current century for sure.