Amen, and I know Tertullian wasn't the first to declare as such although I have had that name tossed in explanation of who the originator was. Personally, I think the Church Father Theophilus of Antioch was the first to coin the "triune" concept by phrase. And I totally agree that God is "triune" by Nature. Whether it is 3 persons, 3 manifestations, or how Church Father Theophilus of Antioch explains that God had both the WORD and WISDOM/SPIRIT within Him and then utilized them for His Will. It is all Triune in Nature!
Three Gods or one? Explain the Trinity.
- Thread starter tantalon
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Amen, and I know Tertullian wasn't the first to declare as such although I have had that name tossed in explanation of who the originator was. Personally, I think the Church Father Theophilus of Antioch was the first to coin the "triune" concept by phrase. And I totally agree that God is "triune" by Nature. Whether it is 3 persons, 3 manifestations, or how Church Father Theophilus of Antioch explains that God had both the WORD and WISDOM/SPIRIT within Him and then utilized them for His Will. It is all Triune in Nature!
The Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, is all one book, inspired by God, over a period of 1500 years. The O.T. does give us a hint of the N.T. further revelation of the Trinitarian nature of The ONE God. That ONE God in three Persons says in Genesis.. "Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness.." (Gen.1:26) The O.T. shows that over and over again we FINITE little human beings offend our INFINITE God with sin. So we incurred a debt that we can not repay! A finite being can not repay an infinite debt! So, as the scripture says. "God put on flesh.." so that He could come down and pay the terrible Price that we owed for our sins. Our sins nailed Him there! And there are MANY Genre's in the bible not just the spiritual Genre. There is the Figurative and there is the Literal.. the Narrative.. Poetic.. Prophetic.. Historic.. Apocalyptic.. and Spiritual.. to name just a few. "In the beginning God created.." a physical world, not a spiritual world. Archeology has confirmed the historical accuracy of many of the names, places. and events described in the Old and New Testaments. In John 6 many of Jesus' disciples walked away from Him muttering.."How can this man (man?) give us His flesh to eat?" "..And they walked away and no longer went about with Him." (Jn.6:66) Jesus could have easily called them back by saying "Oh I only meant that spiritually." But instead.. Jesus let them walk.
Are you aware there are ((7)) different Divine Councils we can find throughout the Tanakh (Old Testament)? Psalms 82 is one of the easiest ones to copy/paste:
1 A song of Asaph. God stands in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He will judge.
אמִזְמ֗וֹר לְאָ֫סָ֥ף אֱלֹהִ֗ים נִצָּ֥ב בַּֽעֲדַת־אֵ֑ל בְּקֶ֖רֶב אֱלֹהִ֣ים יִשְׁפֹּֽט:
2 How long will you judge unjustly and favor the wicked forever?
בעַד־מָתַ֣י תִּשְׁפְּטוּ־עָ֑וֶל וּפְנֵ֥י רְ֜שָׁעִ֗ים תִּשְׂאוּ־סֶֽלָה:
3 Judge the poor and orphan; justify the humble and the impoverished.
גשִׁפְטוּ־דָ֥ל וְיָת֑וֹם עָנִ֖י וָרָ֣שׁ הַצְדִּֽיקוּ:
4 Release the poor and the needy; save [them] from the hands of [the] wicked.
דפַּלְּטוּ־דַ֣ל וְאֶבְי֑וֹן מִיַּ֖ד רְשָׁעִ֣ים הַצִּֽילוּ:
5 They did not know and they do not understand [that] they will walk in darkness; all the foundations of the earth will totter.
הלֹ֚א יָֽדְע֨וּ | וְלֹ֬א יָבִ֗ינוּ בַּֽחֲשֵׁכָ֥ה יִתְהַלָּ֑כוּ יִ֜מּ֗וֹטוּ כָּל־מ֥וֹסְדֵי אָֽרֶץ:
6 I said, "You are angelic creatures, and all of you are angels of the Most High."
ואֲֽנִ֣י אָ֖מַרְתִּי אֱלֹהִ֣ים אַתֶּ֑ם וּבְנֵ֖י עֶלְי֣וֹן כֻּלְּכֶֽם:
7 Indeed, as man, you will die, and as one of the princes, you will fall.
זאָכֵ֥ן כְּאָדָ֣ם תְּמוּת֑וּן וּכְאַחַ֖ד הַשָּׂרִ֣ים תִּפֹּֽלוּ:
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth, for You inherit all the nations.
חקוּמָ֣ה אֱ֖לֹהִים שָׁפְטָ֣ה הָאָ֑רֶץ כִּֽי־אַתָּ֥ה תִ֜נְחַ֗ל בְּכָל־הַגּוֹיִֽם:
^
Knowing there are Councils that God Himself has designed and set-up, how do you know that God was not in one of His Councils in Genesis 1:26?
J
jaybird88
Guest
i agree with you on tertullian, i think a lot of people jump to conclusions with tertullian. yes he used the phrase "trinity" and yes he was one of the first that was teaching on "substance" but he always maintained the three were not equal and that the Father was greater and the Father was the Most High. thats not the trinity.
so do you or does anyone know of any early church fathers, pre rome, that were trinitarians?
I have a copy of the catechism that does claim up till the 4th Century they were Baptizing like we read in the Book of Acts. it even details people being immersed while saying "Baptize in Name of Eshu (Jesus/Yahweh). And it furthers that in the 4th Century they changed that to the Father-Son-Holy Spirit.
Now, when I think if this is factual, they probably were not thinking triune, because they were Baptizing like Eshu represented the "titles."
I think after Constantine's Council, things went into a new direction.
J
jaybird88
Guest
do you or anyone know when the trinity officially became a doctrine and started being taught in churches?
Since I personally do not know, I can only search and hope they actually know. This site is called the "Church History," so maybe their answer is the truth.
The Doctrine of the Trinity: Did It Develop Over Time?
www.christian-history.org/doctrine-of-the...
Our job in this section is to establish that the doctrine of the Trinity taught in the Nicene Creed did not develop, but remained the same from the apostles to Nicea. If the 2nd century churches consistently taught the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity, then 3rd century churches—being in between the 2nd century and Nicea—did as well.
Even this from the person who made a response that seems to be more than one still shows they do not believe Eshu is equal to the Father:
One God the Father is declared, who is above all … The Father is indeed above all, and he is the head of Christ, but the Word … is himself the head of the Church. (V:18:2)
^
That shows they did not see the Father-Word as being equals.
One God the Father is declared, who is above all … The Father is indeed above all, and he is the head of Christ, but the Word … is himself the head of the Church. (V:18:2)
^
That shows they did not see the Father-Word as being equals.
J
jaybird88
Guest
i dont see how that could be possible when they were still calling councils in the 600s dealing with the trinity. if they were making changes in the 600s then what were they teaching before that? know what i mean.
In hebrews it says the father has exalted the son.
It says "of the son He (God) says thy throne o God is forever and ever"
The Father,son,and Holy Spirit are 3 separate persons, all co equal deities.
J
jaybird88
Guest
I do see your point.
And yes, I can clearly see why today some believe the trinity, some believe in Jesus is both the Father-Son-Spirit, and like the Messianic Jews only accept the Father-Son with the Holy Spirit being their "personal spirit."
Which makes what these early first Church Fathers were claiming to be both interesting and questionable. They had access to the "original materials." Does that mean translation is incorrect from that time on or has someone fouled played with the Scriptures we have today?
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jesus created all things.
J
jaybird88
Guest
im not understanding what your trying to say. that passage says nothing about Jesus creating all things. did you quote the wrong passage by mistake?