Catholicism vs Protestantism
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Well, I think it's good to remember that "Muslim is in the plan of salvation" is not quite what the lumen gentium says.
Now, can a person say that there is no salvation apart from the church and "But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator"? I think so. Those two statements do not appear to be contradictory to me.
I don't think they "say only catholic than say Muslim include". I understand that's your perception. I mean this gently, but let's be realistic here, Jackson. I think what you are demonstrating here is more your lack of understanding of both English and the issues involved than inconsistency on the part of the writers of the lumen gentium.
Now, can a person say that there is no salvation apart from the church and "But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator"? I think so. Those two statements do not appear to be contradictory to me.
I don't think they "say only catholic than say Muslim include". I understand that's your perception. I mean this gently, but let's be realistic here, Jackson. I think what you are demonstrating here is more your lack of understanding of both English and the issues involved than inconsistency on the part of the writers of the lumen gentium.
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Actually, B is not a complete sentence, so it's hard to say what it means.
Also, college-level English is not necessarily the English that is used by college students. Many college students in the USA are not capable of reading and writing in college-level English.
Right, I don't think they want to say "Muslim not save".
Also, college-level English is not necessarily the English that is used by college students. Many college students in the USA are not capable of reading and writing in college-level English.
Right, I don't think they want to say "Muslim not save".
I don't agree, but I don't strongly disagree either. I'm open to the possibility that what they are saying is true.
Since we are trying to be careful and logical, I don't think "Muslim in the plan of salvation" is what they actually said, is it?
I think you are misunderstanding what they are saying.
This is why I asked you about the possibility of salvation for those who have never heard of Jesus. What answer do you give? Is Jesus the only savior? Is it possible for someone who has never heard of Jesus to be saved?
Again, I believe that is a false dichotomy. it's possible for a person to not have heard about Jesus and also hold to the faith of Abraham in some sense.
Does it use the word "because"?
Since we are trying to be careful and logical, I don't think "Muslim in the plan of salvation" is what they actually said, is it?
I think you are misunderstanding what they are saying.
This is why I asked you about the possibility of salvation for those who have never heard of Jesus. What answer do you give? Is Jesus the only savior? Is it possible for someone who has never heard of Jesus to be saved?
Again, I believe that is a false dichotomy. it's possible for a person to not have heard about Jesus and also hold to the faith of Abraham in some sense.
Does it use the word "because"?
And what is the definition of complete sentence
Quote
To check that you are writing in complete sentences, try reading your sentences aloud, pausing as indicated by the punctuation. Can each sentence stand alone as a complete thought? If further information is needed to complete the idea, then it is not a complete sentence.
End quote
Muslim is in the plan of salvation.
We know who Muslim are, we know what salvation mean so this sentence is complete, people know what information come from this sentence.
Quote
To check that you are writing in complete sentences, try reading your sentences aloud, pausing as indicated by the punctuation. Can each sentence stand alone as a complete thought? If further information is needed to complete the idea, then it is not a complete sentence.
End quote
Muslim is in the plan of salvation.
We know who Muslim are, we know what salvation mean so this sentence is complete, people know what information come from this sentence.
Say, my brother Jackson, let's consider these two statements:
A There is no salvation apart from Jesus.
B Some people who have never heard of Jesus will be saved.
I assume you will agree with A. In the past, I believe you said you didn't know whether B was true or not, so you allow the possibility that B is true.
So, then, I think you agree that it's possible for both A and B to be true at the same time.
Do you follow what I'm saying here?
A There is no salvation apart from Jesus.
B Some people who have never heard of Jesus will be saved.
I assume you will agree with A. In the past, I believe you said you didn't know whether B was true or not, so you allow the possibility that B is true.
So, then, I think you agree that it's possible for both A and B to be true at the same time.
Do you follow what I'm saying here?
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
The plan of salvation include those who acknowledge creator
It say among whom are Muslim
So Muslim include in the plan of salvation.
This is simple deductive logic
The plan of salvation include those who acknowledge creator
It say among whom are Muslim
So Muslim include in the plan of salvation.
This is simple deductive logic
No, I do not believe that.
Abraham grew up in a land of many gods. Yet, he listened to the voice of the true God and obeyed by leaving the land of his fathers. This indicates faith of some kind, imo.
Abraham is also convinced the God will not destroy the righteous with the wicked, when he bargains with God about the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. And, Abraham gives Melchizedek, a priest of the most high God, a tithe.
These actions all demonstrate faith. Whether it's one of these three things that the lumen gentium has in mind or something else, I'm not sure.
Also, remember that the lumen gentium says that Muslims profess the faith of Abraham, which could simply mean that they claim to have the faith of Abraham. It doesn't say they believe as much as Abraham did, or exactly the same things that Abraham did.
Abraham grew up in a land of many gods. Yet, he listened to the voice of the true God and obeyed by leaving the land of his fathers. This indicates faith of some kind, imo.
Abraham is also convinced the God will not destroy the righteous with the wicked, when he bargains with God about the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. And, Abraham gives Melchizedek, a priest of the most high God, a tithe.
These actions all demonstrate faith. Whether it's one of these three things that the lumen gentium has in mind or something else, I'm not sure.
Also, remember that the lumen gentium says that Muslims profess the faith of Abraham, which could simply mean that they claim to have the faith of Abraham. It doesn't say they believe as much as Abraham did, or exactly the same things that Abraham did.
Yep, but there is some verses that back B up
Romans 2.
But Muslim in the plan of salvation because hold abraham faith is not true
Muslim share the same god with Christian is false
Athenians admid worship unknown God, Muslim know his god name and identified who their god is
His God tell mohammad that Jesus not die on the cross.
So Muslim god oppose the main Christian belief that Jesus die on the cross
The very foundation of Christian faith is jesus die for our sin, so our salvation is by grace
If Jesus not die on the cross than the whole structure of Christianity faith collapse.
Romans 2.
But Muslim in the plan of salvation because hold abraham faith is not true
Muslim share the same god with Christian is false
Athenians admid worship unknown God, Muslim know his god name and identified who their god is
His God tell mohammad that Jesus not die on the cross.
So Muslim god oppose the main Christian belief that Jesus die on the cross
The very foundation of Christian faith is jesus die for our sin, so our salvation is by grace
If Jesus not die on the cross than the whole structure of Christianity faith collapse.
No, I believe that it is reasonable to say that Muslims worship the same God that Christians do in the same sense that the Athenians were worshiping the same God as Paul did.
Paul does not say that the Athenians are saved by worshipping the unknown God. He does say that the Athenians are worshiping the same God that he does.
Sure, in the sense that the Athenians and Paul worshiped the same God!
One may wish to remember though, that both Hindus* and the Athenians worshipped many gods, but Muslims say there is only one God. In that way, I think Muslims are closer to the truth.
*though some Hindus say that they actually worship just one God which manifests itself in many ways.
Paul does not say that the Athenians are saved by worshipping the unknown God. He does say that the Athenians are worshiping the same God that he does.
Sure, in the sense that the Athenians and Paul worshiped the same God!
One may wish to remember though, that both Hindus* and the Athenians worshipped many gods, but Muslims say there is only one God. In that way, I think Muslims are closer to the truth.
*though some Hindus say that they actually worship just one God which manifests itself in many ways.
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