Catholicism vs Protestantism

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Apr 17, 2020
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No, the Muslim path does not lead to salvation for those who reject Jesus. That is what Christians generally believe. As someone said above, if a Muslim man or woman converts to Christianity, then he or she is no longer Muslim. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Light. At least, that's the way my bible reads.
 
No, the Muslim path does not lead to salvation for those who reject Jesus. That is what Christians generally believe. As someone said above, if a Muslim man or woman converts to Christianity, then he or she is no longer Muslim. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Light. At least, that's the way my bible reads.
For your info, if you are a muslim and convert, you will be fine or even jailed and your conversion is null and void. Thats islamic law.
 
Apr 17, 2020
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You think man's law can dictate God's? The apostle Paul spent time in prison for his beliefs, was his conversion then null and void?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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1. For walmart, it happen in Indonesia but if a country make a law, they use exact word
True! And a set of laws is usually intended to be complete in itself. For example, the US code is huge, something like 53 titles. For certain titles, like title 17, it's doubtful that any single person knows everything that it says. And it has a large section of the beginning that deals just with definitions! https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/101

But the lumen gentium is not that kind of document. It isn't complete in itself, it isn't intended to be used in isolation. For example, right in the beginning they imply that they are aware of a previous councils have said

"This it intends to do following faithfully the teaching of previous councils."


Christian save, is that mean all profess Christian save?
No, not all professing Christians are saved.


But real Christian save.
True!


Muslim save, mean real Muslim save
Well, the lumen gentium doesn't say "Muslim save", and I don't think it tries to make distinctions between different types of Muslims.


You always say Muslim mean Muslim that never hear Jesus
No. Of all the millions of people in the world that are broadly called Muslim, I think some are on the path to salvation.


Do you think the word Muslim mean Muslim that never hear Jesus?
Sure, for some of them!


In Indonesia or America the word Muslim do not mean Muslim that never hear about jesus
I don't know that much about the Indonesian language and its conventions for common usage.

I believe the lumen gentium was originally written in Latin. What we've been using here is, I think, an approved translation into standardized college-level English, which I've been reading for at least 30 years. And I'm fairly certain that the word Muslim can be properly applied to a person without regard to how much they have heard about Jesus.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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But the lumen gentium is not that kind of document. It isn't complete in itself, it isn't intended to be used in isolation. For example, right in the beginning they imply that they are aware of a previous councils have said
I understand LG Not complete law, catholic have ccc or may othe law

But I question the consistency

For example, no verse in the Bible say Jesus is not God.

You can not say no salvation apart from Catholic, than say Muslim is in the plan of salvation

It is ok to say Muslim not save, than say for those that never hear the gospel, there will be special consideration. That's common in the law

For example

Every body not show up tomorrow will be fired

Except for those with health issue.

But say only catholic than say Muslim include is inconsistent
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I believe the lumen gentium was originally written in Latin. What we've been using here is, I think, an approved translation into standardized college-level English, which I've been reading for at least 30 years. And I'm fairly certain that the word Muslim can be properly applied to a person without regard to how much they have heard about Jesus
So if one say Muslim save, not under cathegory because never hear about Jesus isn't it?

the lumen gentium doesn't say "Muslim save", and I don't think it tries to make distinctions between different types of Muslims
But it say Muslim in the plan of salvation because profess the faith of abraham.

Do you believe Muslim hold the faith of abraham?

And LG say together with us Muslim adore the one and mercifull god...

Do you believe Christian share the same god with Muslim?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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the lumen gentium is not that kind of document. It isn't complete in itself, it isn't intended to be used in isolation. For example, right in the beginning they imply that they are aware of a previous councils have said
Example
PreVous law say Jesus is the only savior

The next law can not say Jesus not the only savior or lie

Previous law

A. No salvation apart from Catholic

Next law

B. Muslim in the plan of salvation

Is B mean Muslim not save because not catholic?

Normal people college student or not believe B mean Muslim save

If one want to say Muslim not save, say so( say Muslim not save because not catholic)
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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So you believe Protestant save,
Yes, I believe Protestants are saved.
That is a general statement. It doesn't mean that every single Protestant is saved.
Similar to saying, "In the USA, they speak English." It doesn't mean that every single person in the USA speaks English.

...but is official catholic teaching believe Protestant that know about catholic but not partisipate in catholic sacrament save?
No, I believe the official Catholic teaching is that Protestants, or anyone, who knows about the Catholic church in the sense of knowing that their system of priests and bishops is ordained by God, and refuses to participate in the sacraments administered by those priests and bishops, cannot be saved. Because Catholics see salvation as a process, the person in question could always repent and then be on the path to salvation again.

Also include Muslim
Doesn't say Muslim that never hear about catholic.
It doesn't specify. I read it as a general statement.

If one want to say people that never hear Jesus may save apart from Jesus than no need to,mention Muslim,
It state on ccc 841
They mention several different groups before and after that section, in that section I believe they want to talk specifically about Muslims. But of course, what they say there has to be understood in light of other things they and other councils have written.

Did ccc 841 A say Muslim that never hear Jesus may save or

B. Muslim in the plan of salvation .....profess the faith of abraham...?
I believe that would be a false dichotomy. It's possible for a person to not have heard of Jesus and at the same time profess the faith of Abraham. Of course, "the faith of Abraham" could be understood several different ways.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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It say in lumen gentium, people that never hear about Jesus may save

But for Muslim they save because profess abraham faith and adore the same god with catholic
"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator."
And yes, the first group that talks about after that is Muslims. But it doesn't say that the plan of salvation also includes Muslims *because* they are "professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God." Rather, I believe they are listing qualities that Muslims in general have that God may take into account as he judges Muslims, and all humans.

Do you believe Muslim profess the faith of abraham?
Do you believe Muslim adore Christian god?
As I said above, the faith of Abraham can be understood in different ways.

As for worshiping the same God, I like to remember this
Acts 17: 23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I announce to you.
Paul then goes on to talk about the true God. But he has said that the Athenians were worshiping that God in ignorance. So, the Athenians were worshiping the same God as Paul, it's just that the Athenians were worshipping him in ignorance. If that was true for the Athenians back then, the same thinking would hold true regarding Muslims today, imo.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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Hindu also believe there is creator, is Hindu save?
I don't think any particular Hindu god shares all of the same characteristics as the true God. At the same time, a Hindu who believes in a Creator God is better off than an atheist, imo.

Muslim god is not the creator.

This is what Muslim god say

So in 18:90, Allah SWT says:
"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people. Allah said, O Dhul-Qarnayn, either you punish [them] or else adopt among them [a way of] goodness."

Christian god never say sun setting in the spring dark mud. If the sun come close to the earth, 10000 mile, the earth will burn

Muslim god think sun not bigger than a succer ball.
Yes the Muslims are misinformed about God in many ways, just as the Athenians that Paul talked to.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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Hindu also believe there is creator, is Hindu save?

Muslim god is not the creator.

This is what Muslim god say

So in 18:90, Allah SWT says:
"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people. Allah said, O Dhul-Qarnayn, either you punish [them] or else adopt among them [a way of] goodness."

Christian god never say sun setting in the spring dark mud. If the sun come close to the earth, 10000 mile, the earth will burn

Muslim god think sun not bigger than a succer ball.
Just as another thought, some Christians say God created the Earth about 6,000 years ago. Others say it was a couple billion years ago.
Are they worshiping the same God?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Jackson123 said:
So you believe Protestant save,
Yes, I believe Protestants are saved.
That is a general statement. It doesn't mean that every single Protestant is saved.
Similar to saying, "In the USA, they speak English." It doesn't mean that every single person in the USA speaks English.

...but is official catholic teaching believe Protestant that know about catholic but not partisipate in catholic sacrament save?
No, I believe the official Catholic teaching is that Protestants, or anyone, who knows about the Catholic church in the sense of knowing that their system of priests and bishops is ordained by God, and refuses to participate in the sacraments administered by those priests and bishops, cannot be saved. Because Catholics see salvation as a process, the person in question could always repent and then be on the path to salvation again.

Jackson

So you not agree with catholic in this case don't you?


It doesn't specify. I read it as a general statement.

Muslim in the plan of salvation, it doesn't say only Muslim that never hear about Jesus, it just like saya Christian in the plan of salvation or Christian save isn't it?

They mention several different groups before and after that section, in that section I believe they want to talk specifically about Muslims. But of course, what they say there has to be understood in light of other things they and other councils have written
If they consider ccc 816 the truth, than don't say ccc 841.

Bible say Jesus is the only savior, than no other bible writer say Muslim save.

I can't say Muslim save in the light of Jesus the only savior.

believe that would be a false dichotomy. It's possible for a person to not have heard of Jesus and at the same time profess the faith of Abraham. Of course, "the faith of Abraham" could be understood several different ways.
So you believe Muslim that save because never hear gospel or hold faith abraham?

Ccc 841 say Muslim save because hold abraham faith, do you agree?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Jackson123 said:
It say in lumen gentium, people that never hear about Jesus may save


But for Muslim they save because profess abraham faith and adore the same god with catholic

Dan say

"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator."
And yes, the first group that talks about after that is Muslims. But it doesn't say that the plan of salvation also includes Muslims *because* they are "professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God." Rather, I believe they are listing qualities that Muslims in general have that God may take into account as he judges Muslims, and all humans.


Jackson

So you believe Muslim qualified to be save because hold the faith of abraham?

As I said above, the faith of Abraham can be understood in different ways.
And what do you mean by understood different way, give example.

What Catholic understood about to hold abraham faith, what Protestant, way what Muslim way?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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for worshiping the same God, I like to remember this
Acts 17: 23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I announce to you.
So you believe Muslim worship unknown God that is what Muslim save?

What happen with Hindu, are they save too because worship unknown God?

Is muslim, Hindu etc share and worship the same god with catholic?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I don't think any particular Hindu god shares all of the same characteristics as the true God. At the same time, a Hindu who believes in a Creator God is better off than an atheist, imo
And you believe Muslim god share all the characteris of true God, that why Muslim in the plan of salvation?
Yes the Muslims are misinformed about God in many ways, just as the Athenians that Paul talked to.
After Paul tell them who God is they accept and save, I don't think Paul say they don't need to accept Jesus.

Paul not say

Athenians in the plan of salvation because hold the faith of abraham and share the same god with me.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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So you admit Quran not bible. Muslim worship god that is describe by Quran, not the same god by bible

Mean Muslim god is not Christian god
Yes, I agree that the god described in the Quran is different from the God described in the Bible. But there was also some overlap, I believe.
Paul indicated that he in the Athenians were worshiping the same God, even though there were some differences.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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Muslim in the plan of salvation

Muslim don't believe Jesus is god

Salvation don't need to believe Jesus as god

Of course it may not apply for people that never hear gospel
As I understand it, saying that the plan of salvation also includes is not the same as saying that the person included is saved. This is where the possibility of salvation being a process comes in.
I suspect that there are people on the path to salvation, both Muslims and non-muslims, who don't believe Jesus is God.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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I agree.

But only people that agree with bible 100% every aspect of God are worshiping God

Specially the part that say Jesus is God
Well, the Athenians that Paul was talking to we're not worshipping God in a way that I agreed with the Bible 100%. but Paul seems to say that they are worshiping the same God.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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, the Muslim path does not lead to salvation for those who reject Jesus.
I agree! It seems to me, though, there would be cases where a Muslim could not be really said to have been exposed to the truth about Jesus, thus they cannot truly reject Jesus.
Would you agree?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Yes, I agree that the god described in the Quran is different from the God described in the Bible. But there was also some overlap, I believe.
Paul indicated that he in the Athenians were worshiping the same God, even though there were some differences.
Yes, I agree that the god described in the Quran is different from the God described in the Bible. But there was also some overlap, I believe.
Paul indicated that he in the Athenians were worshiping the same God, even though there were some differences.
Different characteristic mean different. In my town there is a man named Jesus, but he is not the Lord Jesus.

He is drug addict.

Muslim God is not Christian God, so Muslim not worship Christian God.