Not By Works

[EleventhHour]

Faith is not faith if there are no works attached to it.

You are assuming like all NOSASer"s that a given word in one context means the same thing it does in another.

Namely "saves" and "justify"

 

[Bbrdrd]

But if your going to use it to prove salvation can be lost and must be earned by works by saying works are REQUIRED.

then you must give a number,



I am not spinning, I am calling it for what it is. Your the one spinning my friend.

Paul said as a FACT that we are saved eternally or made righteous not because as he said later, "of any Good deed we have done (works) (titus 3) but because we had faith in Gods word

But FAITH is never alone. So if one CLAIMS to have faith, But they look inside, and realize they really have no works. They they shoudl consider their faith dead. Which is no faith at all.

And James used abraham as an example. Abraham PROVED his faith was real. because his faith did not sit idle and do NOTHING, It worked.

We are saved at the moment of faith.. People have asked you multiple times if you believed this, Why will you not answer them?

No, there's no need to give a number because such is nothing but a red herring. As I said the same question can be pressed for any expression of what faith is.

James doesn't say Abraham prved his faith was real. He says Abraham's faith was perfected in the works. You say yourself that faith without works is no faith at all, so what's the problem?

As for your last question, I don't answer because I reject the premise. Salvation isn't something that is purely past tense it is something that is past, present, and future. We are justified, but that justification is not a declaration of innocence since judgment comes at the end.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, there's no need to give a number because such is nothing but a red herring. As I said the same question can be pressed for any expression of what faith is.

James doesn't say Abraham prved his faith was real. He says Abraham's faith was perfected in the works. You say yourself that faith without works is no faith at all, so what's the problem?

James is not written for you and I to figure out if others have true faith or not. That's the point. It is written to those who CLAIM to have faith to examine themselves and see if their faith is living or dead. He spoke to THEM not you and I (if you have living faith)

And yes, if you are going to use it to figure out. Then you are requird to give a number, The reasons people do not give a number, is because their is no number.

If anything, the number is because anything above ZERO is a positive affirmation

As for your last question, I don't answer because I reject the premise. Salvation isn't something that is purely past tense it is something that is past, present, and future. We are justified, but that justification is not a declaration of innocence since judgment comes at the end.

Then you reject Jesus teachings of eternal life, and pauls teachings of justification and all other teachings concerning the eternal salvation of the soul

For the saved person There will be no judgment

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

I think John akes the point clear.

If you think you can still go to judgment, Then I have to question your faith

 

[azamzimtoti]

We are justified, but that justification is not a declaration of innocence since judgment comes at the end.

That doesn't square up with the Greek:

Strongs

G1344 dikaioo dik-ah-yo'-o

from G1342;

to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent.

 

[Bbrdrd]

That doesn't square up with the Greek:

Strongs

G1344 dikaioo dik-ah-yo'-o

from G1342;

to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent.

This is a matter of context. Augustine shifted the context from the king/subject model Paul used to one of a court setting. It is to declare just, but not in the sense that its now taken.

 

[azamzimtoti]

This is a matter of context. Augustine shifted the context from the king/subject model Paul used to one of a court setting. It is to declare just, but not in the sense that its now taken.

"It is to declare just, but not in the sense that its now taken"

How is it taken now as against when Paul wrote?

 

[Bbrdrd]

James is not written for you and I to figure out if others have true faith or not. That's the point. It is written to those who CLAIM to have faith to examine themselves and see if their faith is living or dead. He spoke to THEM not you and I (if you have living faith)

And yes, if you are going to use it to figure out. Then you are requird to give a number, The reasons people do not give a number, is because their is no number.

If anything, the number is because anything above ZERO is a positive affirmation


Then you reject Jesus teachings of eternal life, and pauls teachings of justification and all other teachings concerning the eternal salvation of the soul

For the saved person There will be no judgment

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

I think John akes the point clear.

If you think you can still go to judgment, Then I have to question your faith

There's far too much here to get into, and I have no interest in a spat that goes quite as theologically deep as is required for such a disagreement. Essentially, though, you're camping on a handful of verses and neglecting the bulk of the witness of Scripture. It can be said to be a past event, but salvation is presented throughout Scripture as something that has an ongoing component not simply a once-and-done matter.

As for James, the whole reason I bring it up is specifically to highlight that those who place a division between works and saving faith are not presenting a Biblical picture of saving faith. There is no separation, no faith without works. There's no need to get into a number because the whole point is to demonstrate a dimension of faith that many explicitly deny. OSAS proponents set Paul against James and then try to stifle James by speaking of context issues they never define so we can't talk about if they actually are there or not.

 

[Bbrdrd]

"It is to declare just, but not in the sense that its now taken"

How is it taken now as against when Paul wrote?

As I said, it's the setting Paul presented. We take it as a court proceeding where the question is a matter of guilt/culpability. Paul presents an image of a king accepting a subject and declaring them to be within right standing again. Looking purely at the dictionary doesn't give the full picture of a words connotations, and "innocent" can have a number of different meanings depending on setting. Since Augustine it's been treated in a very forensic manner rather than the looser but still apt description of being brought back into a kings good graces.

Protestant theologians have turned the real experience of being brought back in into a legal fiction where God plays the fool. That's not what Paul was getting at at all.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Protestant theologians have turned the real experience of being brought back in into a legal fiction where God plays the fool. That's not what Paul was getting at at all.

How have the protestants turned it into "legal fiction" where God plays the fool?

 

[Rosemaryx]

Yes my precious sister, Jesus never promised it would be easy but he did promise he would be with us during our trials and walk with us in it.

I remember once when I was having counseling by a couple in the church. They were praying for me, they asked me what was going through my mind whilst they prayed.

I said "I imagine a picture of me sat in a bin this bin is full of s**t and that's my life"

They asked me "What do you think Jesus would do to help you whilst in this bin?

I said "Hold his hand out and ask me to grab it and then pull me out"

They said "No, Jesus would ask you to move over, get in the bin with you and then walk out of the bin with you and as you walk together s**t you are covered in will start to be cleaned off you"

Amazing indeed.

Beautiful is our LORD...
Yes , He bends down , He stretches out His hand , He sits with us when we have no strength to stand , and then He refreshes us and walks us out from our bins , our mess , our doubts and our fears...

Some might call this mushy talk , but I call it love from a compassionate God , who knew first hand what it was like to feel and be rejected...

Great is His faithfulness

Amen @BillG ......xox...

 

[Bbrdrd]

How have the protestants turned it into "legal fiction" where God plays the fool?

By turning it from an actual act of justification(with requisite need to behave according to standing) into an exchange of legal position with no actual substance.

 

[EleventhHour]

There's far too much here to get into, and I have no interest in a spat that goes quite as theologically deep as is required for such a disagreement. Essentially, though, you're camping on a handful of verses and neglecting the bulk of the witness of Scripture. It can be said to be a past event, but salvation is presented throughout Scripture as something that has an ongoing component not simply a once-and-done matter.

As for James, the whole reason I bring it up is specifically to highlight that those who place a division between works and saving faith are not presenting a Biblical picture of saving faith. There is no separation, no faith without works. There's no need to get into a number because the whole point is to demonstrate a dimension of faith that many explicitly deny. OSAS proponents set Paul against James and then try to stifle James by speaking of context issues they never define so we can't talk about if they actually are there or not.

Jesus made it very clear to Nicodemus that YES indeed it is a Once and Done matter.

Born Physically Once and Born from Above Once.
Neither can be undone.

 

[EleventhHour]

By turning it from an actual act of justification(with requisite need to behave according to standing) into an exchange of legal position with no actual substance.

It is a legal standing.
Justified >>> Done

 

[azamzimtoti]

By turning it from an actual act of justification(with requisite need to behave according to standing) into an exchange of legal position with no actual substance.

So you are saying by being declared "justified" at the point of believing that that justification has to proven or maintained by some sort of effort?

 

[SoulWeaver]

It is a legal standing.
Justified >>> Done

I would be so curious to hear insights about these things from Christians who are lawyers by profession, I'm sure there's a whole new perspective in the Bible visible to them...

 

[azamzimtoti]

It is a legal standing.
Justified >>> Done

Which is precisely the opposite of what he is stating.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Which is precisely the opposite of what he is stating.

It's a very thin subtle line but it is a world of difference.
It's like someone who Jesus vouched His whole life and reputation for to bail them out. So rather than living in fear, making effort not to ever be seen near shady places again, lest the police grab them (feeling almost as if they had never been freed), this person is so moved that they can't find it in them to live the old vomit life after someone invested all they had to get them out, and they focus on being good members and giving to the community, so others can also be pulled out of misery life. So there's a witness in change of works, and while the two might seem the same on the outside, what's going on inside is actually very different... the discerning point being fear and torment "because fear hath torment". The difference being the point of comparison here, but of course any analogy is lacking.

 

[EleventhHour]

I would be so curious to hear insights about these things from Christians who are lawyers by profession, I'm sure there's a whole new perspective in the Bible visible to them...

Yes but more importantly is to understand from the historical, original meaning from which Paul writes.

Be certain the truth of "justification" or "imputed righteousness" is where false teachers who want to insert works will often attack.

 

[Finepearl]

Are you saying that a person (upon initially placing their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation) remain lost UNTIL later, AFTER they produce works and are saved by BOTH faith AND works? A living faith results in producing works, yet we are still saved through faith and not by works.

I believe my previous posts clearly state what the scriptures say with regards to faith, works and salvation.

 

[Finepearl]

Does living faith save BEFORE a work is done? Or does a work have to be done before a faith is deemed living?

I believe my previous quote answers that question.