Closing the Gap in Dispensationalism

[reneweddaybyday]

This doesn't explain the problem of evil.

You continue to obfuscate rather than deal with the issues brought up which reveal the error in your dogma.

God knowing beforehand that satan would deceive, that Eve and Adam would eat, and putting His plan in place for the redemption of mankind is not the same as God causing Adam to "choose precisely what God wants".

Adam chose what God did not want. God allowed Adam to not do what He wanted. God's plan of redemption was established before Adam sinned.

And God having planned the redemption of mankind before Adam sinned is not analogous to Adam choosing "precisely what God wants".

God having planned the redemption of mankind before Adam sinned is analogous to God knowing beforehand that Adam would sin.

How can the existence of God be harmonized with the existence of evil?" If God is all-good, He would want to destroy evil.

Do you not know?

Revelation 22:

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

If God is all-powerful, He is able to destroy evil. But evil still exists. It seems that God cannot be both all-good and all-powerful. However, Christianity teaches that He is both. This is the problem of evil."

Scripture does not teach that God is evil.

God hardens hearts so they reap more punishment.

God's desire is that the wicked would turn from their evil ways ... Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways ...

 

[Dave-L]

You continue to obfuscate rather than deal with the issues brought up which reveal the error in your dogma.

God knowing beforehand that satan would deceive, that Eve and Adam would eat, and putting His plan in place for the redemption of mankind is not the same as God causing Adam to "choose precisely what God wants".

Adam chose what God did not want. God allowed Adam to not do what He wanted. God's plan of redemption was established before Adam sinned.

And God having planned the redemption of mankind before Adam sinned is not analogous to Adam choosing "precisely what God wants".

God having planned the redemption of mankind before Adam sinned is analogous to God knowing beforehand that Adam would sin.





Do you not know?

Revelation 22:

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.





Scripture does not teach that God is evil.





God's desire is that the wicked would turn from their evil ways ... Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways ...

God cannot sin, even if he does the sins he tells us not to do. He causes people to sin just as he causes people not to sin. He caused Pharaoh to sin after hardening his heart. And many other examples exist if you recall.

 

[Dave-L]

Because that's God's example, model and preference for the Glorified body. Jesus was the prototype, the firstborn from the dead.

But you add to scripture describing him as you would have him to be. John says we don't know. Flesh and blood (Bone Marrow) cannot inherit the kingdom.

 

[Dave-L]

Biblical faith is being fully persuaded that God is able to perform what He said.

Romans 4
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

But if you choose to believe. it is a "used car charlie's" type of faith. Biblical faith causes you to believe without choosing.

 

[Dave-L]

That is easily proven. All one has to do is see from THE WORDS OF CHRIST that the Rapture is imminent. It could happen at any time with no connection to a Tribulation period or any other event. And the parable of the Ten Virgins is an outstanding example.

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom... Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of Man cometh.

This is corroborated several times:

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. (Mt 24:42)

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of Man cometh. (Mt 24:44)

After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. (Mt 25:19)

All this is addressed to believers (servants of Christ) -- the disciples -- and then to us. As we know from other Scriptures, this is NOT the Second Coming of Christ, which is to judge the world, when He comes with all His saints and angels.

Now that it has been proven, will you believe it or continue with your false doctrines?

You take liberalities "adjusting" these to your Dispensationalism. Not one NT scripture mentions a pre-trib rapture or a 7-year tribulation, or a millennium, or a physical kingdom, or Revelation applying only to the future. Or a gap, or a restored Roman Empire, or Russia attacking Israel. or a rebuilt Temple, a return to animal sacrifices, or most of what Dispensationalism teaches.

 

[Dave-L]

The reason there are conflicting beliefs is because Christianity is a narrow path. This is especially true of doctrine. Since it's easier to do....Most people tend to lean too far one way or another and jumping to conclusions because the seeming contradictions (Biblical tensions) are too much for them to handle.

If we emphasize the Law, we become judiazers. If we emphasize too much grace, we turn it into licentiousness (Jude 4).
If we emphasize to much faith, we become bad stewards. If we emphasize too much stewardship, we become self-sufficient.
If we emphasize free will, we don't give God credit. If we emphasize election, we forfeit abandon our responsibility.
In this case, one may emphasize the Kingdom as spiritual or physical...and both are in error. Because its not one or the other.

These are all good and true things, but without a balanced view of Scripture our doctrine will be inconsistent and wrong.
We have to hold doctrine in balance and let the tension linger in your mind until you see the resolve. If you aren't diligent in the Word, they will remain as a mystery to you. But if you "present yourself approved to God....accurately handling the Word of Truth".....you will believe and present the Word consistently and faithfully.

We need to be on the narrow path practically and doctrinally.

Only the born again can understand scripture. Those still in the flesh cannot. That is why so many different theories exist. But the born again form the church though very few in number,

 

[Dave-L]

@Dave-L
If you don't want to provide Scripture with all your complaints about our comments, then we don't value your comments as Biblically weighty.

"If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized " -1 Cor 14:37-38

I assume too much. I think those who disagree are apt students of the bible and are familiar with these topics.

 

[John146]

But if you choose to believe. it is a "used car charlie's" type of faith. Biblical faith causes you to believe without choosing.

Nope. More opinions without Scripture. When one puts their trust/belief in the Shed blood of Christ, the faith of Christ justifies that believer. The believer lives by the faith of Jesus Christ. That’s imputed righteousness.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Verse 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[John146]

I assume too much. I think those who disagree are apt students of the bible and are familiar with these topics.

I can’t assume you understand the doctrine of the faith of Christ because your false Bible does not contain it. You really need to get yourself a KJV and stick with it.

 

[Dave-L]

Nope. More opinions without Scripture. When one puts their trust/belief in the Shed blood of Christ, the faith of Christ justifies that believer. The believer lives by the faith of Jesus Christ. That’s imputed righteousness.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Verse 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

All born-again believers do this after God saves them. You think choosing to do this saves a person. And your back with "used car Charlie" type of faith.

 

[Dave-L]

I can’t assume you understand the doctrine of the faith of Christ because your false Bible does not contain it. You really need to get yourself a KJV and stick with it.

If you choose to believe, it only means you don't believe. It's experiencing Christ in the heart that produces faith as an effect. No choice is necessary.

 

[John146]

All born-again believers do this after God saves them. You think choosing to do this saves a person. And your back with "used car Charlie" type of faith.

Is that your new catch phrase, “used car Charlie?” Instead of quoting scripture, resort to coach phrases?

 

[Dave-L]

Is that your new catch phrase, “used car Charlie?” Instead of quoting scripture, resort to coach phrases?

It illustrates the difference between flesh belief and Holy Spirit faith.

 

[John146]

It illustrates the difference between flesh belief and Holy Spirit faith.

Can you post scripture of flesh belief and Spirit belief?

 

[Dave-L]

Can you post scripture of flesh belief and Spirit belief?

“Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.” John 2:23–25 (KJV 1900)

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia..."
(διασπορά-scattered)="Christians who live in dispersion in the world, far from their heavenly home". They are strangers and sojourners of the earth

I think I agree with what you've said.

The problem is that many dispensationalists attempt to re-frame the context because Peter definitely uses language similar to Exodus 19 in order to promote a dispensationalist view of Scripture.

I don't really think most dispensationalists would attempt to claim that this is a future event, because the error is so obvious.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I’m sorry, but I can’t get past this.

It's a fine Bible, with great notes.

Even if I had serious issues with the NIV, it would still be a fine Bible. DA Carson and the other authors are excellent exegetes.

I suppose if I was a KJV Onlyist dispensationalist, though, I wouldn't like it.

Instead, I would clutch my Scofield Reference bible firmly, with my newspaper in the other hand, and watch my Left Behind videos

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Who are the strangers in the last days? When are the last days?

The strangers are any believer who doesn't belong with the current, evil world order.

And, the last days began with Christ.

This dispensationalist view of the "last days" is false. It is a much more inclusive term, and extends from Pentecost to the return of Jesus.

It is used plainly to refer to events at Pentecost.

It's pretty funny that dispensationalists claim to read the bible literally, but when it literally says something, they deny it if it doesn't fit with their theology

Acts 2:17-21 17 “‘And IN THE LAST DAYS it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
(ESV)

This was fulfilled when Peter quoted it. He didn't quote it because it pertained only to the future. He was quoting it's fulfillment THEN.

Many such things dispensationalists will ignore, though.

That is why the "already but not yet" view of covenant theology is correct. And you don't have to be amillennial to hold it. Historic premillennialists know that this is the correct view, too.

I'm guessing even some "progressive dispensationalists" understand that much.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

God gives us the means and the choice to believe.
From Romans 10, we see that there must be a response to hearing a preached message, as the gospel does not arise spontaneously from within a person. Hearing is the intermediate step or ‘hinge’ between the message being spoken and its being believed. The message awakens faith and makes it possible. Faith must rest on the message that is preached, and without that message there is no basis for faith. "Faith comes by hearing the Word Christ". He doesn't say "by merely hearing...", there's another step.
We must understand this in the broader context of Scripture.
Paul expressed that he was thankful that the Thessalonians heard and accepted the Gospel:
"when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe." -1 Thess 2:13
(δέχομαι-accept)="to indicate approval or conviction by accepting"

An illustration: I could mail you a formal invitation (plane ticket included) to my wedding. Once the invitation is in your hands, you have the ability to chose to go or not go. If you don't chose to go, then you don't. But if you do chose to go, you do...and I get the credit for your arrival because I made it possible.

Firstly, I believe that God provides a preaching of the gospel prior to regeneration.

If you want to compare it to building a fire, he causes the firewood to be laid down first, prior to regeneration, which causes the woodpile to explode into flames.

The difference between Reformed and free-willer theology is that they believe they cause the woodpile to explode into flames by their faith and repentance, which they provide. The Reformed position would be that God causes the woodpile to explode into flames, and faith and repentance results.

And, in regards to the "broader context of Scripture", free willers DO NOT acknowledge that God CHOOSES individuals for salvation, because in their mind it is unfair. Well, the fair thing is that everyone goes to eternal punishment, and that none are saved.

The Reformed view is that God elects a certain group of individuals, who are given to the Son. The Son redeemed this group from their sins, and it was an ACTUAL and PERSONAL redemption. The Holy Spirit applies this redemption to this group in time.

This is clearly taught in Scripture, and is the grander context of salvation.

I have laid out, specifically, the Scriptures that refer to this on other threads, but there is a book called Five Points of Calvinism by David Steele which also lays this out very well.

It is no less fair for God to choose certain individuals for salvation, than for him to select certain individuals for salvation at the time of Noah, and to let the rest drown.

That may not appeal with some folks' Play-doh, free-willer view of God, but if it is what Scripture teaches, we cannot argue with it. Ad it definitely teaches that GOD CHOOSES, and not based on individual merit.

John 6, 8,10, Ephesians 1, 2, Romans 8-11, 1 Cor 1:26ff would be good places to start in this regard.

It is plain that certain individuals have been given to the Son, and others are not.

 

[John146]

“Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.” John 2:23–25 (KJV 1900)

Jesus did not commit himself to this believers because it was not his time yet. He would even tell his disciples from time to time to keep quiet who he is because it was not his time.

Btw, these were Jews trusting in signs, not the body of Christ trusting in the d,b,r for sins.