Catholicism vs Protestantism

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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Well, let's start with the first statement

No salvation apart from Jesus

The problem is that there is ambiguity in the statement. Does it mean that there is no salvation for those who have never heard of Jesus? Or, does it mean that there is salvation for those who have never heard of Jesus, but they are not saved apart from Jesus.


As I see it, it's closely related to the question that we were talking about earlier, the question:

Is it possible for someone who has never heard of Jesus to be saved?

I think that it is possible. If I remember right you said that you didn't know.

But if you don't know, then you can't say that someone else's answer is wrong.

Do you follow what I'm saying there?
For the people that never hear about Jesus we talk later

Is there salvation apart from Jesus for those that hear the gospel?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Well, what does it mean when the document says "the plan of salvation also includes"? Is section 841 the first time they have talked about the plan of salvation including a group?
Is muslim a group?

When you say that hospital belong to catholic ?

What it's mean
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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In your mind, does
included in the plan of salvation
mean the same thing as
be saved?

I'm not sure, but I think in Catholic theology, salvation is both something that happens at a particular point in time and something that happens over time.
Salvation only obtained by believe in Jesus

That's mean when you believe in Jesus you save

The plan of salvation include Muslim is that mean Muslim not save?

If so just be honest, say Muslim not include in the plan of salvation.

Muslim in the plan of salvation mean Muslim not save?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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We are not everything that Christ is. At the same time, you can't separate the head from the body!
No salvation apart from Jesus
It doesn't mean no salvation apart of catholic do you agree?

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I think they are saying that if someone is saved, the church, the body of Christ, is involved in some way.
Remember, this is very similar to the issue that you said you didn't have an answer to, the issue of whether a person who has never heard of Jesus can be saved.
The head is not the same as the body, but if it is true that the head cannot be separated from the body, then in anything that the head does, the body would also be involved.
Thus, if anyone is saved, whether they have heard the name of Jesus or not, they are not saved apart from the body of Christ, the church.
Because the head can't apart from the body, so you believe :

No salvation apart from Jesus mean no salvation apart from Catholic Church?

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
In your mind, does
included in the plan of salvation
mean the same thing as
be saved?

I'm not sure, but I think in Catholic theology, salvation is both something that happens at a particular point in time and something that happens over time.

What is your definition of Muslim?
I think it means that there is the possibility that a Muslim can be saved without "accepting Jesus" in the way that many Protestants mean when they talk about "accepting Jesus". But I don't think Catholics are saying that if a Muslim is saved, that Muslim is saved apart from Jesus.
So you believe ccc 841 mean Muslim can not be save without accepting Jesus?

What is your definition of Muslim?

In my country if Muslim accepting Jesus, they will disown by their family and consider not Muslim anymore.

Muslim accepting Jesus is Christian not Muslim anymore

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Well, let's start with the first statement

No salvation apart from Jesus

The problem is that there is ambiguity in the statement. Does it mean that there is no salvation for those who have never heard of Jesus? Or, does it mean that there is salvation for those who have never heard of Jesus, but they are not saved apart from Jesus.


As I see it, it's closely related to the question that we were talking about earlier, the question:

Is it possible for someone who has never heard of Jesus to be saved?

I think that it is possible. If I remember right you said that you didn't know.

But if you don't know, then you can't say that someone else's answer is wrong.

Do you follow what I'm saying there?
I am not criticizing wether people never hear gospel save or not.

I criticizing Muslim in the plan of salvation

Can you help me to distiguish between : Muslim and people that never hear gospel?

Is all Muslim never hear gospel?

Is muslim believe Jesus as God?

What is your definition of Muslim?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
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For the people that never hear about Jesus we talk later

Is there salvation apart from Jesus for those that hear the gospel?
I don't think there is salvation apart from Jesus for those that hear the gospel.


And by hear, I'm thinking of hearing a reasonable version of the Gospel.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
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Is muslim a group?

When you say that hospital belong to catholic ?

What it's mean
Yes, I would consider Muslims a group.


I don't think I've heard someone say that a hospital belongs to Catholics. The usual phrase in English is "Catholic hospital", which I think means a hospital associated in some significant way with Catholics.

In the USA, there are Catholic hospitals, Adventist hospitals, even Jewish hospitals, which I didn't know about until I met my wife. And then there's other kinds of religious and non-religious hospitals, like hospitals associated with a university.

Catholic hospitals won't do abortions. Adventist hospitals won't serve bacon.

Jewish hospitals do things to help the Jewish patients keep the law of Moses and Jewish customs.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
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Salvation only obtained by believe in Jesus

That's mean when you believe in Jesus you save
Right, and Catholics view salvation as a process. So, when you read a Catholic document, you may wish to remember that the writers are thinking of salvation as a process.

(There are some Bible verses which seem to indicate salvation is a process.)


The plan of salvation include Muslim is that mean Muslim not save?
I think what they are saying is that some Muslims have the possibility of salvation.


If so just be honest, say Muslim not include in the plan of salvation.
When I first read the lumen gentium after you first told me about it, I did not sense any dishonesty. If you sense dishonesty, it might be because of difficulties with the English or lack of exposure to Catholic theology.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
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No salvation apart from Jesus
It doesn't mean no salvation apart of catholic do you agree?

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."
No, I don't agree that there is no salvation apart from Catholic.

I believe that Catholics are, in general, part of the body of Christ because they believe the main points about Jesus, just like I do.

If anyone is saved (or in the process of salvation, whichever), it is not apart from the body of Christ.


1 Corinthians 12: 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit.

I think this would even include a person who is alone on an island who becomes saved. They too are baptized in one Spirit into the same body that we are in.


In addition, I'm sure you've read this verse

1 Timothy 2: 1 I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men.

Since Christians are praying for all people, if someone is saved, even someone who has never heard the name of Jesus, the body of Christ has been involved in that!
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
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No salvation apart from Jesus mean no salvation apart from Catholic Church?
I believe there is no salvation apart from the church, the body of Christ. Catholics are going to call that the Catholic Church, I will just call that the church, but I don't see that as something worth dividing over.

Catholics will also say that their hierarchy, the system of priests and bishops, is the only one ordained by God. I don't know about that, but again I don't see it as something worth dividing over.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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I don't think there is salvation apart from Jesus for those that hear the gospel.


And by hear, I'm thinking of hearing a reasonable version of the Gospel.
Is that mean you not agree with this catholic belief?


841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
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What is your definition of Muslim?

So you believe ccc 841 mean Muslim can not be save without accepting Jesus?

What is your definition of Muslim?

In my country if Muslim accepting Jesus, they will disown by their family and consider not Muslim anymore.

Muslim accepting Jesus is Christian not Muslim anymore

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
What is a Muslim? I think the definition from Wikipedia works well:

"Muslims are people who follow or practice Islam, a monotheistic Abrahamic religion. Muslims consider the Quran, their holy book, to be the verbatim word of God as revealed to the Islamic prophet and messenger Muhammad. The majority of Muslims also follow the teachings and practices of Muhammad as recorded in traditional accounts."


I think the Catholic position is that a Muslim has the possibility of being saved without "accepting Jesus" in the Protestant sense. I think a big piece of the possibility would be whether or not the Muslim in question has heard a reasonable account of Jesus.

But no one is saved apart from Jesus.

It makes sense that a person who was a Muslim and now says that Jesus is God would be expelled from the Muslim community and their family. I think Jesus even prophesied about that kind of situation.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Yes, I would consider Muslims a group.


I don't think I've heard someone say that a hospital belongs to Catholics. The usual phrase in English is "Catholic hospital", which I think means a hospital associated in some significant way with Catholics.

In the USA, there are Catholic hospitals, Adventist hospitals, even Jewish hospitals, which I didn't know about until I met my wife. And then there's other kinds of religious and non-religious hospitals, like hospitals associated with a university.

Catholic hospitals won't do abortions. Adventist hospitals won't serve bacon.

Jewish hospitals do things to help the Jewish patients keep the law of Moses and Jewish customs.
So the word Muslim in this paragraph mean a group

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

That's mean catholic belief Muslim save

And Muslim do not believe Jesus is a God
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Right, and Catholics view salvation as a process. So, when you read a Catholic document, you may wish to remember that the writers are thinking of salvation as a process.
It doesn't matter if salvation process or not, but do you believe if one hear about catholic but chose Protestant, not save?


I think what they are saying is that some Muslims have the possibility of salvation.
So when Catholic want to say Muslim have possibility of salvation, she say Muslim in the plan of salvation?

Why not say like what is mean?

My car is red

That mean my car is white

Mean I am liar.

When I first read the lumen gentium after you first told me about it, I did not sense any dishonesty. If you sense dishonesty, it might be because of difficulties with the English or lack of exposure to Catholic theology.
If one say Muslim in the plan of salvation than say it mean there is possibility of salvation it mean lie
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
No, I don't agree that there is no salvation apart from Catholic.

I believe that Catholics are, in general, part of the body of Christ because they believe the main points about Jesus, just like I do.

If anyone is saved (or in the process of salvation, whichever), it is not apart from the body of Christ.


1 Corinthians 12: 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit.

I think this would even include a person who is alone on an island who becomes saved. They too are baptized in one Spirit into the same body that we are in.


In addition, I'm sure you've read this verse

1 Timothy 2: 1 I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men.

Since Christians are praying for all people, if someone is saved, even someone who has never heard the name of Jesus, the body of Christ has been involved in that!
So you not agree only member of RCC save

But you agree with this ccc 816?

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
I believe there is no salvation apart from the church, the body of Christ. Catholics are going to call that the Catholic Church, I will just call that the church, but I don't see that as something worth dividing over.

Catholics will also say that their hierarchy, the system of priests and bishops, is the only one ordained by God. I don't know about that, but again I don't see it as something worth dividing over.
So you not agree with ccc 816?

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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Muslims are people who follow or practice Islam, a monotheistic Abrahamic religion. Muslims consider the Quran, their holy book, to be the verbatim word of God as revealed to the Islamic prophet and messenger Muhammad. The majority of Muslims also follow the teachings and practices of Muhammad as recorded in traditional accounts."
This definition is not biblical. If Muslim abrahamic religion, it must believe in the Bible, believe Jesus God.

I think the Catholic position is that a Muslim has the possibility of being saved without "accepting Jesus" in the Protestant sense. I think a big piece of the possibility would be whether or not the Muslim in question has heard a reasonable account of Jesus.
What do you mean by in the Protestant sense?


But no one is saved apart from Jesus.
Let build deductive logic

No one save apart from Jesus (I copy your statement)

Muslim save

Therefore Muslim believe Jesus is God

And the reality is muslim not believe Jesus is God, so ccc841 is lie
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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I am not criticizing wether people never hear gospel save or not.

I criticizing Muslim in the plan of salvation
Well, those Muslims that have never heard a reasonable account of the Gospel or description of Jesus would be in the category of those who have never heard, imo.


Can you help me to distiguish between : Muslim and people that never hear gospel?

Is all Muslim never hear gospel?
I think some Muslims have heard, some have not. I think the Quran talks about Jesus a little bit, and Muslims in general say that Jesus was a prophet.

But consider the case of a woman in a strict Muslim society. She isn't allowed to leave the house without a male relative with her, she is never taught to read, and the only thing she hears about Jesus is what they say in the mosque. And in the mosque, they say don't trust Christians or the Bible. Has she really heard? I would say no. Of course God is the judge.


Is muslim believe Jesus as God?
I'm pretty sure they don't believe Jesus is God.


What is your definition of Muslim?
I put the definition from Wikipedia in a post that I wrote yesterday evening. By the time you read this post, you will probably have read that post already!