Catholicism vs Protestantism

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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I don't think so. But I think it shows the issue with this syllogism
Christ is God.
We are the body of Christ.
Therefore we are God.

I think the issue is that you each statement, while true, is not all of the truth. For example, Christ is God, but Christ is not all of who God is.
How about

No salvation apart from Jesus

Catholic Church is the body of Christ

Therefore no salvation apart from RCC

Is that true?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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To do that is going to require a step-by-step approach so that we can be sure we are understanding each other along the way, imo.
Let's start with

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

You do believe that's mean require to accept Jesus for Muslim to be save or not
 
Apr 17, 2020
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Jesus is the only way. Any religion, any sect of Christianity that doesn't acknowledge Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior has completely erred. Those who never heard of Jesus, God judges or forgives based on seeing their inner 'heart.'
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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They talked about many people besides Muslims. Who all do they talk about?
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Let do it step by step like you suggested we fokus on Muslim

That don't believe in Jesus

Why catholic say Muslim in the plan of salvation?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Jesus is the only way. Any religion, any sect of Christianity that doesn't acknowledge Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior has completely erred. Those who never heard of Jesus, God judges or forgives based on seeing their inner 'heart.'
So, you not agree with catholic don't you?

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I don't see that implication in there.
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

The implication is muslim don't need confess jesus as God to be save
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
I don't think so. But I think it shows the issue with this syllogism
Christ is God.
We are the body of Christ.
Therefore we are God.

I think the issue is that you each statement, while true, is not all of the truth. For example, Christ is God, but Christ is not all of who God is.
So we are the body of Christ doesn't mean we are Christ
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
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The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."

A. Is that mean salvation only by Catholic Church?

What is the different with B

B. Salvation by Christ alone.

Seem to me Catholic replace Christ
 
Apr 17, 2020
99
41
18
ok
I can't speak for all, obviously, but I consult my bible for answers, and no sect's interpretations of what it means. The latter may be helpful sometimes, but not so much in this case. So I'll bow out here with the suggestion that you consult your bible and decide for yourself if the church's desire to be ecumenical fits with God's word.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
I can't speak for all, obviously, but I consult my bible for answers, and no sect's interpretations of what it means. The latter may be helpful sometimes, but not so much in this case. So I'll bow out here with the suggestion that you consult your bible and decide for yourself if the church's desire to be ecumenical fits with God's word.
My brother, we are here to discuss, if any church teach something that not inline with the Bible or intend to replace the Bible in disguise, don't you worry it will mislead other to hell?

After you consult with the Bible, let other know, if that teaching is oppose the Bible.

We are call to love, love mean learn to care other, warn other if there is trap ahead.

False teaching is a trap, it will kill you
 
My brother, we are here to discuss, if any church teach something that not inline with the Bible or intend to replace the Bible in disguise, don't you worry it will mislead other to hell?

After you consult with the Bible, let other know, if that teaching is oppose the Bible.

We are call to love, love mean learn to care other, warn other if there is trap ahead.

False teaching is a trap, it will kill you
The bible tells us all that is false comes from the devil
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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How about

No salvation apart from Jesus

Catholic Church is the body of Christ

Therefore no salvation apart from RCC

Is that true?
Well, let's start with the first statement

No salvation apart from Jesus

The problem is that there is ambiguity in the statement. Does it mean that there is no salvation for those who have never heard of Jesus? Or, does it mean that there is salvation for those who have never heard of Jesus, but they are not saved apart from Jesus.


As I see it, it's closely related to the question that we were talking about earlier, the question:

Is it possible for someone who has never heard of Jesus to be saved?

I think that it is possible. If I remember right you said that you didn't know.

But if you don't know, then you can't say that someone else's answer is wrong.

Do you follow what I'm saying there?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Let's start with

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

You do believe that's mean require to accept Jesus for Muslim to be save or not
I think it means that there is the possibility that a Muslim can be saved without "accepting Jesus" in the way that many Protestants mean when they talk about "accepting Jesus". But I don't think Catholics are saying that if a Muslim is saved, that Muslim is saved apart from Jesus.

Myself, I think that would be true for non-muslims, as well. It is possible that a person can be saved without "accepting Jesus", but that person would not be saved apart from Jesus.


I found this quote, and I think it relates to what I was saying about Catholic teaching going back two thousand years, and just looking at a single paragraph, or maybe two paragraphs by themselves and trying to decide if there is contradiction or confusion, will probably lead to misunderstanding.

"...to understand an isolated formulation of any Church teaching, one must study the historical context within which it was written: why it was written, what was going on in the Church at the time, who the intended audience was, and so on. One must discover how the magisterium (teaching office) of the Church understands its own teaching. If someone fails to do this and chooses, rather, to simply treat a particular formulation as a stand-alone teaching, he runs the risk of seriously misunderstanding it."

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Jesus is the only way. Any religion, any sect of Christianity that doesn't acknowledge Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior has completely erred. Those who never heard of Jesus, God judges or forgives based on seeing their inner 'heart.'
I agree, there is the possibility of forgiveness for those who have never heard of Jesus. That forgiveness, imo, is related in some way to the cross.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Let do it step by step like you suggested we fokus on Muslim

That don't believe in Jesus

Why catholic say Muslim in the plan of salvation?
Well, what does it mean when the document says "the plan of salvation also includes"? Is section 841 the first time they have talked about the plan of salvation including a group?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
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841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

The implication is muslim don't need confess jesus as God to be save
In your mind, does
included in the plan of salvation
mean the same thing as
be saved?

I'm not sure, but I think in Catholic theology, salvation is both something that happens at a particular point in time and something that happens over time.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."

A. Is that mean salvation only by Catholic Church?

What is the different with B

B. Salvation by Christ alone.

Seem to me Catholic replace Christ
I think they are saying that if someone is saved, the church, the body of Christ, is involved in some way.
Remember, this is very similar to the issue that you said you didn't have an answer to, the issue of whether a person who has never heard of Jesus can be saved.
The head is not the same as the body, but if it is true that the head cannot be separated from the body, then in anything that the head does, the body would also be involved.
Thus, if anyone is saved, whether they have heard the name of Jesus or not, they are not saved apart from the body of Christ, the church.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
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I can't speak for all, obviously, but I consult my bible for answers, and no sect's interpretations of what it means. The latter may be helpful sometimes, but not so much in this case. So I'll bow out here with the suggestion that you consult your bible and decide for yourself if the church's desire to be ecumenical fits with God's word.
Ecumenical, yes or no, great question!
On one hand, we have things like rivalries and divisions being listed as works of the flesh. And Paul says that the divisions in the church at Corinth, some people of Paul and some people of Apollos etc, were not at all a good thing.


On the other hand,

2 John 1: 10 If anyone comes to you, and doesn't bring this teaching, don't receive him into your house, and don't welcome him, 11 for he who welcomes him participates in his evil works.

In the context of that passage, the particular teaching is that Jesus came in the flesh. Is that the only teaching worth dividing over? I think probably not.

And if one isn't sure?

I lean towards accidentally including someone who should have been excluded as opposed to the other way around.