Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jesus on the cross said "Father forgive them because they don't know what they are doing"
Their sins were forgiven on the cross.
Matthew 27:45-46
Jesus Dies on the Cross
(Mark 15:33–41; Luke 23:44–49; John 19:28–30)
45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
The debt of the wicked servant was forgiven but it did not mean he was saved.
My sin was forgiven on the cross, so was the worst tyrants of the world.
It doesn't mean they were saved.
We are saved by faith.
The wicked servant had no interest in being like the master who forgave him.
Their sins were forgiven on the cross.
Matthew 27:45-46
Jesus Dies on the Cross
(Mark 15:33–41; Luke 23:44–49; John 19:28–30)
45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
The debt of the wicked servant was forgiven but it did not mean he was saved.
My sin was forgiven on the cross, so was the worst tyrants of the world.
It doesn't mean they were saved.
We are saved by faith.
The wicked servant had no interest in being like the master who forgave him.
-
3
-
2
- Show all
no, that is incorrect; you pointed us to where Hebrews says understanding of the person of Christ is spiritual 'meat' and comparatively, repentance from dead works is spiritual 'milk' -- an elementary principle.
the same passage does say that to have faith in God is also 'milk' -- something we ought to take to heart. it is a fundamental, basic thing that we should not have to continually be told. John 5:24 concerns this, because Jesus says the one who believes in Him has eternal life - this concerns belief, and trust, which are fundamental. for Christ to say this though, is no simple thing, no matter how simply stated. it is the how of this that is amazing - the why. the wonder of the gospel, that eternal life is given by grace through faith, is so richly profound that thousands of years of generations of men and women devoting themselves to meditation on it have not begun to collectively comprehend it - and this, this how and why, this thing God has done, 'a new thing' of springs in the desert, is inextricably woven with the person of Christ, the nature of Him and His doing, His coming forth and His going.
look at what the apostle marvels at, @Judges1318
it is not, as you are trying to teach us, 'oh the depth of knowing it's bad to sin!' -- it is not, 'how unsearchable the fact that doing evil is wrong, how beyond tracing out!'
look at what the apostle marvels at. he marvels at the person and work of God -- because knowing Him is meat. His flesh is real meat, and His blood is real drink. knowledge of Him, Peter says, is how we have everything we need to live a godly life. knowledge of Him and His profound work, hiding Himself in flesh and atoning for the whole world, is the thing even angels long to look into, and that all the prophets carefully sought for to understand. such knowledge is what David called 'too wonderful for me to know' so lofty that he could not attain it.
that's not milk, dude. that's meat. that is something you can spend eternity chewing on. we're not going to be marveling for infinite years about the profundity of 'lying is bad' -- we're going to be rapt with joy and wonder over knowledge of the unsearchable person and mighty works of the Living God.
the same passage does say that to have faith in God is also 'milk' -- something we ought to take to heart. it is a fundamental, basic thing that we should not have to continually be told. John 5:24 concerns this, because Jesus says the one who believes in Him has eternal life - this concerns belief, and trust, which are fundamental. for Christ to say this though, is no simple thing, no matter how simply stated. it is the how of this that is amazing - the why. the wonder of the gospel, that eternal life is given by grace through faith, is so richly profound that thousands of years of generations of men and women devoting themselves to meditation on it have not begun to collectively comprehend it - and this, this how and why, this thing God has done, 'a new thing' of springs in the desert, is inextricably woven with the person of Christ, the nature of Him and His doing, His coming forth and His going.
Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable His judgments, and His paths beyond tracing out!
How unsearchable His judgments, and His paths beyond tracing out!
(Romans 11:33)
look at what the apostle marvels at, @Judges1318
it is not, as you are trying to teach us, 'oh the depth of knowing it's bad to sin!' -- it is not, 'how unsearchable the fact that doing evil is wrong, how beyond tracing out!'
look at what the apostle marvels at. he marvels at the person and work of God -- because knowing Him is meat. His flesh is real meat, and His blood is real drink. knowledge of Him, Peter says, is how we have everything we need to live a godly life. knowledge of Him and His profound work, hiding Himself in flesh and atoning for the whole world, is the thing even angels long to look into, and that all the prophets carefully sought for to understand. such knowledge is what David called 'too wonderful for me to know' so lofty that he could not attain it.
that's not milk, dude. that's meat. that is something you can spend eternity chewing on. we're not going to be marveling for infinite years about the profundity of 'lying is bad' -- we're going to be rapt with joy and wonder over knowledge of the unsearchable person and mighty works of the Living God.
Can you discover the depths of God?
Can you discover the limits of the Almighty?
(Job 11:7)
Can you discover the limits of the Almighty?
(Job 11:7)
-
1
-
1
- Show all
However we understand "following after the law of righteousness" - it's plain as day that werkers are off the mark when we consider what Paul said
(Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.)
(Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone)
(Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.)
(Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone)
-
1
- Show all
it means exactly what it says. it's talking about the Jewish people, who had received the testimony of their God, walking and dwelling among them in the flesh exactly as one of their brothers. they had heard Him and they had heard His disciples: received the knowledge of the truth. if this people were to go on putting their trust in Moses after hearing the One Moses spoke of, they have no expectation but judgement and fire. as Moses said: "you must listen to Him"
the temple was still standing when this letter was written. the people making sacrifices there had heard the truth. many of them had seen Him themselves. but this letter says, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. why? why is he saying to Jewish people who have heard and seen THE TRUTH Himself, if you deliberately go on, the sacrifices you make at the temple do not cover your sin? what sin is it that this audience, in the context of the preceding hundreds of words, might go on deliberately doing, which would make them enemies of God? why is this in the context of Moses, and of the law being a shadow that has passed away?
what specific action would be related to the topic of priesthood and levitical rites that a 1st century Jewish man might willfully go on doing, which would be tantamount to treating the blood of the new covenant as an unholy thing?
read verses 1-25. they are not unrelated to verse 26.
the temple was still standing when this letter was written. the people making sacrifices there had heard the truth. many of them had seen Him themselves. but this letter says, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. why? why is he saying to Jewish people who have heard and seen THE TRUTH Himself, if you deliberately go on, the sacrifices you make at the temple do not cover your sin? what sin is it that this audience, in the context of the preceding hundreds of words, might go on deliberately doing, which would make them enemies of God? why is this in the context of Moses, and of the law being a shadow that has passed away?
what specific action would be related to the topic of priesthood and levitical rites that a 1st century Jewish man might willfully go on doing, which would be tantamount to treating the blood of the new covenant as an unholy thing?
read verses 1-25. they are not unrelated to verse 26.
-
1
- Show all
The work of God
John 6:29
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
The result
John 6:35-40
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
V36. Never saved.
V37 on says it all
John 6:29
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
The result
John 6:35-40
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
V36. Never saved.
V37 on says it all
-
3
-
1
- Show all
No, I do not think Backsliding and Unbelief are opposite terms. Here is why:
1 Corinthians 3:14-16 (HCSB)
14 If anyone’s work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward. {SALVATION is not a REWARD, it is a GIFT.}
15 If anyone’s work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire.
16 Don’t you yourselves know that you are God’s sanctuary and that the Spirit of God lives in you?
If you know for SURE that YOU HAVE been BORN AGAIN, you cannot lose your SALVATION. You can lose spiritual GROWTH, you can lose REWARDS, you can lose INTIMACY with the LORD from YOUR prospective, BUT, HE LOVES YOU JUST THE SAME, therefore SALVATION IS STILL SECURE. You are still Born Again, you cannot Un-Born your human spirit. HOWEVER, that does not mean, ALL your AGAPE LOVE is GONE. It is PART OF HIMSELF, that HE HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT pour into our HEARTS (Human Spirit) when we were Born Again. Everyone who is not SURE, needs to search one's own heart, to see if GOD's LOVE is in your heart. Here is a way you can be SURE.
1 John 3:14-19 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers.
The one who does not love remains in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has
eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us.
We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—
how can God’s love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,
So Abraham believed God about his heirs, but this was only proved true when he offered
Issac to be sacrificed.
I'm uncertain about this. Abraham had left his home in another land, taking wife, nephew, herds and people he'd acquired to leave the place where he'd prospered to go where he did not know, was not told - all at a command from the Lord. It isn't about proof to God, who chose Abraham to begin the revelation of Christ to men. Pretty certain that God knew Abraham's heart and faith already.
So saying God does not need proof I think is wrong.
I don't think God needs proof of anything.
So we can never separate works and salvation, they are the different sides of the same
coin.
Now, we end up in full agreement with your conclusion. Different sides of the same coin was a good way to put it, I think.
Issac to be sacrificed.
I'm uncertain about this. Abraham had left his home in another land, taking wife, nephew, herds and people he'd acquired to leave the place where he'd prospered to go where he did not know, was not told - all at a command from the Lord. It isn't about proof to God, who chose Abraham to begin the revelation of Christ to men. Pretty certain that God knew Abraham's heart and faith already.
So saying God does not need proof I think is wrong.
I don't think God needs proof of anything.
So we can never separate works and salvation, they are the different sides of the same
coin.
Now, we end up in full agreement with your conclusion. Different sides of the same coin was a good way to put it, I think.
-
1
- Show all
