Not By Works
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I appreciate you taking the time to share as you did. One thing comes to mind though and that is you debated this on a website after suggesting I not do it. That’s funny.
I did not pose a trick question, I asked if we are saved by grace through faith, and it was actually a rhetorical question. We are indeed saved by grace through faith. It is Jesus’ perfect obedience and His works that save us. Our works do not maintain anything.
On another note, I agree with you that faith is not a feeling ~ it is a relationship with God. A relationship which cannot be lost on our part once we enter into it. And we enter that relationship by believing in Jesus Christ. The works that come afterward are fruit of the Spirit.
I did not pose a trick question, I asked if we are saved by grace through faith, and it was actually a rhetorical question. We are indeed saved by grace through faith. It is Jesus’ perfect obedience and His works that save us. Our works do not maintain anything.
On another note, I agree with you that faith is not a feeling ~ it is a relationship with God. A relationship which cannot be lost on our part once we enter into it. And we enter that relationship by believing in Jesus Christ. The works that come afterward are fruit of the Spirit.
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If you belive the above drivel then you belive in numerous gospels, believe in coddling false teachers, believe in ecumenical works, deny the fact there is one gospel of salvation and by default sow discord, division, disunity while chunking Jesus under the bus! THIS thread is about biblical salvation...there is NO LAW GRACE WORKS BLEND salvation in the bible.....and to be honest, it not only sickens me that you said the above crap, but that you fail to see the error of those that devalue faith, Jesus, his promises, power and work on our behalf by the false crap the workers for, self faith maintainers and salvation losers peddle in THIS THREAD!
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everything recorded in the NT about what Christ did has complements in the OT; His life explains many mysteries of the OT and the OT explains many of the mysteries of Him. so, in my thinking, using examples of His life isn't separable from the prophecies and types and shadows given before Him.
like this example. Satan is a very astute student of scripture; their meeting in the wilderness is an amazing conversation, and in it Satan is making the same evil accusation that the children of Israel did in the wilderness -- about bread, has God only brought them out of Egypt to kill them, their children and their animals? this isn't just about the man Jesus fasting. Satan knows He is come from God - tho i don't think that he realizes who Christ really is, at this point. i think he is probing, is this the Messiah? can Adam 2.0 fall in sin like Adam 1.0 ?
not that i think you're saying we shouldn't study the OT, EG -- just saw y'alls conversation and wanted to emphasize that yes, we should be students of the law & the prophets -- they speak of Christ. we need to be students of them specifically in how they teach us about His person & work. if we weren't, we'd think Satan is just testing whether Jesus's carnal needs like hunger can cause Him to break His fast. but what is that? who told Him to fast; why would that be sin if He made bread? there are much deeper things being grappled over in here than the superficial reading, and part of unlocking them is finding out how they relate to all the narrative of the scripture that leads up to them.
like this example. Satan is a very astute student of scripture; their meeting in the wilderness is an amazing conversation, and in it Satan is making the same evil accusation that the children of Israel did in the wilderness -- about bread, has God only brought them out of Egypt to kill them, their children and their animals? this isn't just about the man Jesus fasting. Satan knows He is come from God - tho i don't think that he realizes who Christ really is, at this point. i think he is probing, is this the Messiah? can Adam 2.0 fall in sin like Adam 1.0 ?
not that i think you're saying we shouldn't study the OT, EG -- just saw y'alls conversation and wanted to emphasize that yes, we should be students of the law & the prophets -- they speak of Christ. we need to be students of them specifically in how they teach us about His person & work. if we weren't, we'd think Satan is just testing whether Jesus's carnal needs like hunger can cause Him to break His fast. but what is that? who told Him to fast; why would that be sin if He made bread? there are much deeper things being grappled over in here than the superficial reading, and part of unlocking them is finding out how they relate to all the narrative of the scripture that leads up to them.
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I am sorry you see my post as a debate . You seemed to be asking questions of people on here so i gave my thoughts but suggested rather than seeking answers to this on here, to seek answers from the Holy Spirit direct so you don't need to debate with human.
So my post was not a debate. not asking for yours or others opinions. But you immediately attacked me for making a suggestion. All good, I have said what needed to be said, what you do or don't do is up to you once I have done what was laid on my heart to do.
So my post was not a debate. not asking for yours or others opinions. But you immediately attacked me for making a suggestion. All good, I have said what needed to be said, what you do or don't do is up to you once I have done what was laid on my heart to do.
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E
ok for everyones information.
I am not talking about the OT I am talking about mosaic law.
When the lamen person hears the word "LAW" the first thing which comes to their mind is the law of moses.
90% or more of people do not underatand the Law (torah) can also be used as a term to describe the first 5 books of the bible or even the OT, even most people in our churches when they here the word. The first thing which comes to mind is the law of moses. Not the OT.
So when people say we need to look to the "LAW" to learn how to do righteous things, or to grow. MOST people will automatically think you are talking about the law of moses.
If people mean look the the OT. then people should just say it.
what happened to people in the wilderness from egypt is not the "law" it has nothing to do with the "LAW". So instead of confusing people. lets just say, the OT...
I am not talking about the OT I am talking about mosaic law.
When the lamen person hears the word "LAW" the first thing which comes to their mind is the law of moses.
90% or more of people do not underatand the Law (torah) can also be used as a term to describe the first 5 books of the bible or even the OT, even most people in our churches when they here the word. The first thing which comes to mind is the law of moses. Not the OT.
So when people say we need to look to the "LAW" to learn how to do righteous things, or to grow. MOST people will automatically think you are talking about the law of moses.
If people mean look the the OT. then people should just say it.
what happened to people in the wilderness from egypt is not the "law" it has nothing to do with the "LAW". So instead of confusing people. lets just say, the OT...
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Only those with a good and noble heart can begin to even think that to be true of themselves:
"15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop." - Luke 8:15
Good and noble soil retains the Word, and through that perseverance brings it to fruition. But in the not so good soil the danger of the Word not being retained exists:
"13Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." - Luke 8:13
Once saved always saved is only true for those with a good and noble heart who retain the word. It's not true for the believer who does not have the Word firmly and deeply established in his heart. I'm just going by what Jesus said, not by what man says.
"15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop." - Luke 8:15
Good and noble soil retains the Word, and through that perseverance brings it to fruition. But in the not so good soil the danger of the Word not being retained exists:
"13Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." - Luke 8:13
Once saved always saved is only true for those with a good and noble heart who retain the word. It's not true for the believer who does not have the Word firmly and deeply established in his heart. I'm just going by what Jesus said, not by what man says.
the law is one law, under all of it, or under none of it.
we're not under the Moses, at all - and the law of the covenant made at Sinai, at Horeb, is not something you can break apart and say, we keep this part, but not that part. break it in any way, and your'e guilty of all. no one in the Bible talks about the Law as tho it's in sections you can separate from each other -- that's a purely human invention coming much later by wolves who want to subject you to it.
we are not under the law at all, because we have died, and the law has no authority over the dead.
we were not made free by having the law shattered into pieces and a few of them landing on us while others did not.
we were made free by being completely removed from the jurisdiction of the Law.
we swim in international waters, my friend.
the objection made is, well you're lawless then.
i'm not Belgian. Belgium has laws, some of them good -- like 'do not murder'
just because i'm not under Belgian law doesn't mean i approve murder.
i am not under the Law, but not lawless - i am under the law of Christ.
i'm not under the 10 commandments any more than i am under the law of tzitzit. this doesn't mean i have no ethos or no remembrance. it means i am the servant of One greater than the Law.
we're not under the Moses, at all - and the law of the covenant made at Sinai, at Horeb, is not something you can break apart and say, we keep this part, but not that part. break it in any way, and your'e guilty of all. no one in the Bible talks about the Law as tho it's in sections you can separate from each other -- that's a purely human invention coming much later by wolves who want to subject you to it.
we are not under the law at all, because we have died, and the law has no authority over the dead.
we were not made free by having the law shattered into pieces and a few of them landing on us while others did not.
we were made free by being completely removed from the jurisdiction of the Law.
we swim in international waters, my friend.
the objection made is, well you're lawless then.
i'm not Belgian. Belgium has laws, some of them good -- like 'do not murder'
just because i'm not under Belgian law doesn't mean i approve murder.
i am not under the Law, but not lawless - i am under the law of Christ.
i'm not under the 10 commandments any more than i am under the law of tzitzit. this doesn't mean i have no ethos or no remembrance. it means i am the servant of One greater than the Law.
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Paul most certainly talked about the law in sections, not as a whole.
"31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." - Romans 3:31
"Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!" - Galatians 4:9-10
This demonstrates a very clear division of the law taught by Paul.
I think the law of Christ is simply the law of Moses minus the things that Christ himself, being a righteous man, did not need to do in the law of Moses when He walked the earth.
Take out things like sacrifices, ceremonies and festivals, etc. and you essentially have what Paul calls the law of Christ.
"31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." - Romans 3:31
"Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!" - Galatians 4:9-10
This demonstrates a very clear division of the law taught by Paul.
I think the law of Christ is simply the law of Moses minus the things that Christ himself, being a righteous man, did not need to do in the law of Moses when He walked the earth.
Take out things like sacrifices, ceremonies and festivals, etc. and you essentially have what Paul calls the law of Christ.
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I was just going through this yesterday again,
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Of course that after they die, when they have finished their race already, they cannot perish or be plucked up; it's a little late then for devil's efforts to ruin them. So I really don't get it. If this isn't eternal security, where is God's glory, why would Jesus boast with something they are supposed to work out? I can't believe that people read this to mean basically:
"You will never be perished or snatched out of My hand, only if you manage to get to the end of the race on your own and prevent yourself on your own from being snatched up, then when you are dead no one will pluck you up". This honestly looks to me more like mockery of Christ, and not a promise at all.
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Of course that after they die, when they have finished their race already, they cannot perish or be plucked up; it's a little late then for devil's efforts to ruin them. So I really don't get it. If this isn't eternal security, where is God's glory, why would Jesus boast with something they are supposed to work out? I can't believe that people read this to mean basically:
"You will never be perished or snatched out of My hand, only if you manage to get to the end of the race on your own and prevent yourself on your own from being snatched up, then when you are dead no one will pluck you up". This honestly looks to me more like mockery of Christ, and not a promise at all.
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no, it doesn't.
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
(Romans 3:27-31)
we are justified apart from works of the law.(Romans 3:27-31)
we are justified apart from circumcision.
Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”
(Galatians 4:28-30)
we are not justified by things according to the flesh. (Galatians 4:28-30)
we are born, purified and justified according to the power of the Spirit.
just because Paul uses observing holy days and weeks as an example of the absurdity of the enslavement that seeking righteousness through works doesn't mean Paul is selectively editing the Law - which says 'do all these things in order to have life' - in order to subject ourselves to bits of it and not to other bits.
it is not any great wonder that the perfect law of liberty exhibits the same moral character of goodness and righteousness as the ministry of death engraved in stone. it is the same righteous God who gave the Israelites a law of covenant in stone who now gives us a covenant in His own blood. an heart of flesh, after the image of His own heart.
if you need a law to tell you that you should love, bro, you need a new heart which already has this compulsion written into its very fabric. you don't need 3 or 4 shards of the broken heart of stone; that doesn't make anyone complete.
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Excellent argument.
But the authority that the law no longer has over us is the authority to make us sin:
"8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting." - Romans 7:8
Sin within us is what gives the authority of the law to do that. But when we die to sin through Christ the law can no longer arouse sin in us through it's commandments. Instead, the Spirit within us leads us into an upholding of the commandments of the law. Not the ceremonial parts of the law. Those are unneeded and obsolete for the person who has been brought near to God through the new way of faith in Christ. What remains is the debt of the law in regard to loving others as ourselves:
"8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another (Leviticus 19:18), for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law." - Romans 13:8
But the authority that the law no longer has over us is the authority to make us sin:
"8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting." - Romans 7:8
Sin within us is what gives the authority of the law to do that. But when we die to sin through Christ the law can no longer arouse sin in us through it's commandments. Instead, the Spirit within us leads us into an upholding of the commandments of the law. Not the ceremonial parts of the law. Those are unneeded and obsolete for the person who has been brought near to God through the new way of faith in Christ. What remains is the debt of the law in regard to loving others as ourselves:
"8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another (Leviticus 19:18), for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law." - Romans 13:8
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The law as a way to overcome sin (which it never was) has ended.
It has been replaced by the new way of the Spirit:
"6But now, by dying to what once bound us (sinful flesh), we have been released from the (authority of the) law (to bind us to sin) so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." - Romans 7:6
This 'new way' of the Spirit upholds, not nullifies, the law.
It has been replaced by the new way of the Spirit:
"6But now, by dying to what once bound us (sinful flesh), we have been released from the (authority of the) law (to bind us to sin) so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." - Romans 7:6
This 'new way' of the Spirit upholds, not nullifies, the law.
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the Spirit leads us into righteousness.
the law is good and just -- but it cannot produce righteousness. it is not meant to.
if the law is a schoolmaster leading us to the Righteous One and the Spirit is the spirit of righteousness why would i imagine there's a different righteousness at the center of each?
what i am saying is, no surprise Leviticus says, love. but it isn't because i read Leviticus and am compelled by the regulation that i have love. i love because He loves me, first. it is Christ in me saying, 'love' -- He is the compulsion, not the letter. because that letter was written to speak of Him, in the very first place: it is its primary purpose. now having gained knowledge of Him it's not through being commanded by Leviticus but through being led by the Spirit.
if i ever visit Belgium, i'm not going to be murdering people.
it won't be because i've put myself under subsets of Belgian civil code.
it will be because the life in me is not murderous.
Belgian law says many of the same things the spirit in me says, but that doesn't mean i'm living by Belgian law, even if i happen to obey all of it.
the law is good and just -- but it cannot produce righteousness. it is not meant to.
if the law is a schoolmaster leading us to the Righteous One and the Spirit is the spirit of righteousness why would i imagine there's a different righteousness at the center of each?
what i am saying is, no surprise Leviticus says, love. but it isn't because i read Leviticus and am compelled by the regulation that i have love. i love because He loves me, first. it is Christ in me saying, 'love' -- He is the compulsion, not the letter. because that letter was written to speak of Him, in the very first place: it is its primary purpose. now having gained knowledge of Him it's not through being commanded by Leviticus but through being led by the Spirit.
if i ever visit Belgium, i'm not going to be murdering people.
it won't be because i've put myself under subsets of Belgian civil code.
it will be because the life in me is not murderous.
Belgian law says many of the same things the spirit in me says, but that doesn't mean i'm living by Belgian law, even if i happen to obey all of it.
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As I'm showing, the Bible very plainly shows us that we are to subject ourselves to "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18), but not to things like 'they must bring as their offering for the sin they committed a female goat without defect" (Leviticus 4:28).
That's a clear division of the law and distinction of commandments in this New Covenant.
That's a clear division of the law and distinction of commandments in this New Covenant.
of course it is; it is God's argument. it is Romans 6, 7 & 8
this is the way we have become alive to God, through the death of Christ.
as i said, it's not by the Law having been edited and partially deleted. not one jot or tittle passed away.
it's by being removed from its jurisdiction.
the only way you're going to be able to make any other argument is by trying to delete jots and erase tittles.
this is the way we have become alive to God, through the death of Christ.
as i said, it's not by the Law having been edited and partially deleted. not one jot or tittle passed away.
it's by being removed from its jurisdiction.
the only way you're going to be able to make any other argument is by trying to delete jots and erase tittles.