Catholicism vs Protestantism

[Jackson123]

In what I wrote in the post that you quoted, I wasn't talking specifically about Peter being in Rome.

I was talking about the presence of Christianity and Christians in Rome before Paul arrived.

Acts 28: 14 So we came to Rome. 15 From there the brothers, when they heard of us, came to meet us as far as The Market of Appius and The Three Taverns. When Paul saw them, he thanked God, and took courage.

So there were already Brothers in Rome who came to meet Paul.

Romans 1: 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, that your faith is proclaimed throughout the whole world.


The faith of Roman Christians, before the arrival of Paul, had been proclaimed throughout the whole world.


Romans 1: 13 Now I don't desire to have you unaware, brothers, that I often planned to come to you, and was hindered so far, that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among the rest of the Gentiles.


But Paul had never met them.

14 Where we found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so we went toward Rome.

15 And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.

I am not sure the word thence in verse 15 mean Rome.

1. Les se verse 14 the last sentence say :" and we went toward Rome"

So thence in verse 15 can mean a city or town from departed town to Rome.

2. Read what Christian do every time apostle visit the town, ex verse 14 they give them shelter, not in Rome

3. Why Jews in Rome don't know about Christianity and willing to hear from Paul, if Christian already there

Rome 1;8 didn't say the letter before Paul in Rome

Rome 1:13 didn't mean Paul never meet them, can be Paul meet them before and moving to other town.

And Paul miss them. If Paul,never meet them why he wrote a letter to them.

Anyway you don't believe Peter was pastor there, and this letter support that, it is unaprropriate if the president was pastor there and member of cabinet wrote that kind of letter.

So Peter not pastor there and pope is not Peter successor and catholic history is lie.

 

[Jackson123]

Hang on there, one step at a time.


"Those who are “invincibly” ignorant concerning the truth of #1 above will not be culpable for this lack of knowledge before God."

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/o...ally-no-salvation-outside-the-catholic-church


Do you disagree with this? Now, I'm not asking if you think it contradicts something else they said. I'm asking if you believe that those who are invincibly ignorant are culpable before God


Invincibly ignorant
Romans 2:12-16 King James Version (KJV)

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

To balance this verse

John 3

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 

[Jackson123]

From catholic answere

Quote

Although in ways known to himself God can lead those, who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men” (quoting Ad Gentes, 7, another document from Vatican II).

End quote

Lumen gentium II/16/126

126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,


What is the reason of to evangelized ?

To me the reason to evangelize is to bring salvation

Catholic believe Muslim is in the plan of salvation. It mean they are had been evangelized by Quran no need conversion to bible.

That make me believe, catholic not teach real gospel

 

[Jackson123]

Well, we disagree there. I think you are interpreting the book of Acts incorrectly.

Which part of Acts are you looking at there?

Act 28 tell when Paul arrived in Rome he talk to Jews community there and some of them accept Jesus

23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

 

[Dan_473]

So you believe the writer is honest but I only take single statement not consider the rest.

No, I don't think the writer is perfectly honest. I don't think anyone is perfectly honest except God.


The writer probably tried her best to be unbiased. But like all humans, she has biases and motivations.


What I'm saying is that if a person wishes accurate information about Catholic theology, the New York times article probably isn't the best place to start, since it isn't primarily a theological journal.


I certainly wouldn't trust our local newspaper to give an accurate picture of the church I attend!

 

[Dan_473]

14 Where we found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so we went toward Rome.

15 And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.

I am not sure the word thence in verse 15 mean Rome.

1. Les se verse 14 the last sentence say :" and we went toward Rome"

So thence in verse 15 can mean a city or town from departed town to Rome.

2. Read what Christian do every time apostle visit the town, ex verse 14 they give them shelter, not in Rome

3. Why Jews in Rome don't know about Christianity and willing to hear from Paul, if Christian already there

Rome 1;8 didn't say the letter before Paul in Rome

Rome 1:13 didn't mean Paul never meet them, can be Paul meet them before and moving to other town.

And Paul miss them. If Paul,never meet them why he wrote a letter to them.

Anyway you don't believe Peter was pastor there, and this letter support that, it is unaprropriate if the president was pastor there and member of cabinet wrote that kind of letter.

So Peter not pastor there and pope is not Peter successor and catholic history is lie.

"At last we came to Rome. The believers there had heard we were coming."

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+28&version=NIRV

To me, that sure sounds like the brothers were coming from Rome.

(As I'm sure you know, the verse numbers were added later. They are tradition, not part of the scriptures.)


The Christians in Rome didn't give shelter to Paul because he was a guest of Caesar


The Jewish leaders in Rome had heard about Christianity.

Acts 28: 22 For, as concerning this sect, it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against."

But it sounds like they want to know more details.

Also, Romans 1:8 says that the faith of the Roman Christians had been proclaimed throughout the whole world. So the Jewish leaders had heard about Christianity, but maybe they wanted more details from a fellow Jewish leader.


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1&version=NIRV

"I pray that now at last it may be God’s plan to open the way for me to visit you.

11 I long to see you. I want to make you strong by giving you a gift from the Holy Spirit. 12 I want us to encourage one another in the faith we share. 13 Brothers and sisters, I want you to know that I planned many times to visit you. But until now I have been kept from coming. My work has produced results among the other Gentiles. In the same way, I want to see results among you."


This section in Romans certainly sounds to me like Paul hadn't visited them yet.


Are you thinking that the letter we call Romans had been written after Paul is in Rome in Acts 28?


I think Paul wrote to the Roman Christians that he had never met because it was probably a large and growing Church, since it was in a very large city. It probably had a lot of gentiles in it, and since Paul's main ministry is to the gentiles, he wanted to write to them in order to strengthen them.


"Anyway you don't believe Peter was pastor there…"

I didn't say that. I don't know if Peter was pastor there or not.


"...and this letter support that, it is unaprropriate if the president was pastor there and member of cabinet wrote that kind of letter."

I don't think that's a necessary conclusion. Perhaps they were both pastors there. Peter's main ministry is to Jewish people, Paul's ministry is to gentiles. Paul confronts Peter to his face in Galatians.


The two points I was focusing on are, imo,

Acts not mentioning Peter in Rome does not mean that Peter was not in Rome.

There were Christians in Rome before Paul arrives in Acts 28.

 

[Dan_473]

@Jackson123 said

"Invincibly ignorant

Romans 2:12-16 King James Version (KJV)


12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;


13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


To balance this verse


John 3


18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."


Great verses!

What do they say to you? For people who have never heard the name of Jesus, do they have a chance at heaven? Or are they automatically condemned to hell?

 

[Dan_473]

Catholic believe Muslim is in the plan of salvation. It mean they are had been evangelized by Quran no need conversion to bible.

I don't think it means that, I pretty sure that's not what they are saying.

 

[Dan_473]

Act 28 tell when Paul arrived in Rome he talk to Jews community there and some of them accept Jesus

23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

I think it's too big of a leap to go from those scriptures that you quoted to

"Act give a credit to Paul as the founder of the Church of Rome"


Rome was a huge City. There could easily have been a church in a different part of the city already.

 

[Jackson123]

No, I don't think the writer is perfectly honest. I don't think anyone is perfectly honest except God.


The writer probably tried her best to be unbiased. But like all humans, she has biases and motivations.


What I'm saying is that if a person wishes accurate information about Catholic theology, the New York times article probably isn't the best place to start, since it isn't primarily a theological journal.


I certainly wouldn't trust our local newspaper to give an accurate picture of the church I attend!

This is from commission for religious relation with Jews

"THE GIFTS AND THE CALLING
OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE"
(Rom 11:29)

5. The universality of salvation in Jesus Christ and God’s unrevoked covenant with Israel

35. Since God has never revoked his covenant with his people Israel, there cannot be different paths or approaches to God’s salvation. The theory that there may be two different paths to salvation, the Jewish path without Christ and the path with the Christ, whom Christians believe is Jesus of Nazareth, would in fact endanger the foundations of Christian faith. Confessing the universal and therefore also exclusive mediation of salvation through Jesus Christ belongs to the core of Christian faith. So too does the confession of the one God, the God of Israel, who through his revelation in Jesus Christ has become totally manifest as the God of all peoples, insofar as in him the promise has been fulfilled that all peoples will pray to the God of Israel as the one God (cf. Is 56:1-8). The document "Notes on the correct way to present the Jews and Judaism in preaching and catechesis in the Roman Catholic Church" published by the Holy See’s Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews in 1985 therefore maintained that the Church and Judaism cannot be represented as "two parallel ways to salvation", but that the Church must "witness to Christ as the Redeemer for all" (No.I, 7). The Christian faith confesses that God wants to lead all people to salvation, that Jesus Christ is the universal mediator of salvation, and that there is no "other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved" (Acts 4:12).

That is from their own publication

Secular news not bias in this conclusion

Catholic believe god never cancel His Covenance with israel so there are 2 path of salvation

For Jews and for Christian than it mean she lie when when she say Islam in the plan of salvation, if so she must say there are 3 path, or their consider Islam is jews.



http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...i_doc_20151210_ebraismo-nostra-aetate_en.html

 

[Jackson123]

@Jackson123 said

"Invincibly ignorant

Romans 2:12-16 King James Version (KJV)


12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;


13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


To balance this verse


John 3


18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."


Great verses!

What do they say to you? For people who have never heard the name of Jesus, do they have a chance at heaven? Or are they automatically condemned to hell?

Base on those verses yes

 

[Jackson123]

I don't think it means that, I pretty sure that's not what they are saying.

So what is : " Muslim is in the plan of salvation because adore abraham god mean?"

 

[Jackson123]

I think it's too big of a leap to go from those scriptures that you quoted to

"Act give a credit to Paul as the founder of the Church of Rome"


Rome was a huge City. There could easily have been a church in a different part of the city already.

So you think it may already Church in Rome at that time

The way Luke wrote, I don't think that the case, every where if there is Christian they always come to visit Paul if he in town, people ask Paul stay for 2 week , , tell how Christian love Paul

And when he arrive at Rome, Luke not mention if there was welcome party for him.
Very not likely there was already Christian there or Luke change his writing model.

To me Luke is very detail compare with Matthew or mark.

 

[Jackson123]

"At last we came to Rome. The believers there had heard we were coming."

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+28&version=NIRV

To me, that sure sounds like the brothers were coming from Rome.

(As I'm sure you know, the verse numbers were added later. They are tradition, not part of the scriptures.)


The Christians in Rome didn't give shelter to Paul because he was a guest of Caesar


The Jewish leaders in Rome had heard about Christianity.

Acts 28: 22 For, as concerning this sect, it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against."

But it sounds like they want to know more details.

Also, Romans 1:8 says that the faith of the Roman Christians had been proclaimed throughout the whole world. So the Jewish leaders had heard about Christianity, but maybe they wanted more details from a fellow Jewish leader.


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1&version=NIRV

"I pray that now at last it may be God’s plan to open the way for me to visit you.

11 I long to see you. I want to make you strong by giving you a gift from the Holy Spirit. 12 I want us to encourage one another in the faith we share. 13 Brothers and sisters, I want you to know that I planned many times to visit you. But until now I have been kept from coming. My work has produced results among the other Gentiles. In the same way, I want to see results among you."


This section in Romans certainly sounds to me like Paul hadn't visited them yet.


Are you thinking that the letter we call Romans had been written after Paul is in Rome in Acts 28?


I think Paul wrote to the Roman Christians that he had never met because it was probably a large and growing Church, since it was in a very large city. It probably had a lot of gentiles in it, and since Paul's main ministry is to the gentiles, he wanted to write to them in order to strengthen them.


"Anyway you don't believe Peter was pastor there…"

I didn't say that. I don't know if Peter was pastor there or not.


"...and this letter support that, it is unaprropriate if the president was pastor there and member of cabinet wrote that kind of letter."

I don't think that's a necessary conclusion. Perhaps they were both pastors there. Peter's main ministry is to Jewish people, Paul's ministry is to gentiles. Paul confronts Peter to his face in Galatians.


The two points I was focusing on are, imo,

Acts not mentioning Peter in Rome does not mean that Peter was not in Rome.

There were Christians in Rome before Paul arrives in Acts 28.

14 Where we found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so we went toward Rome.

15 And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.

Like I say I believe the word thence in verse 15 is the town in between puteoli(verse 13) to Rome

Why

1. No welcome party in Rome
2. Verse 15, they meet at appii forum
I google the distance from Rome to appii forum is 43 miles

43 miles
Forum Appii. The Forum Appii (or Appii Forum) is an ancient post station on the Via Appia, 43 miles (69 km) southeast of Rome, founded, no doubt, by the original constructor of the road.
Wikipedia › wiki › Forum_Appii
Forum Appii - Wikipedia

There was no car then, they more likely walk, if this people is from Rome, and know Paul will come to Rome, why they not wait and meet at Rome?

Abou the letter to Rome, I believe Paul write after act 28.

Paul always wrote a letter to a church that he start I never recall Paul write to the church of Jerusalem because he not start that church.

Romans 15:20 King James Version (KJV)

20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

This verse is a letter to the church in Rome
If there was another man lay foundation before Paul why he lie to the very people that witness that Peter lay foundation in that church

If Paul want to lie, he may lie to church in Jerusalem because it is to far from Rome and people in Jerusalem that don't see Peter start church in Rome may believe his lie

 

[garee]

If you trust history, than read the book of act, this book is accurate history, honest not lie.

The book of act is history or action of the apostle

The action of the Holy Spirit .

Not to get technical but the word apostle is one of the most abused words .its original meaning made to no effect. . Its an action that God perform having nothing to do with the feet of the messenger hands or mind . but does have everything thing to do with the message (gospel) .Not of the apostles.

Apostle simply means sent one. The first one listed Abel, the first prophet and martyr in the Bible. Adding new meaning destroy the intent of the author. A motive of operation of the antichrist.

 

[Jackson123]

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...i_doc_20151210_ebraismo-nostra-aetate_en.html

35. Since God has never revoked his covenant with his people Israel, there cannot be different paths or approaches to God’s salvation. The theory that there may be two different paths to salvation, the Jewish path without Christ and the path with the Christ, whom Christians believe is Jesus of Nazareth,

........ two different part of salvation Jewish part withou Christ....

Is that biblical?

Why Peter the first pope evangelized Jews?

Is that a mistake?

Don't vatican believed pope is infallible?

 

[Jackson123]

The action of the Holy Spirit .

Not to get technical but the word apostle is one of the most abused words .its original meaning made to no effect. . Its an action that God perform having nothing to do with the feet of the messenger hands or mind . but does have everything thing to do with the message (gospel) .Not of the apostles.

Apostle simply means sent one. The first one listed Abel, the first prophet and martyr in the Bible. Adding new meaning destroy the intent of the author. A motive of operation of the antichrist.

I agree, act is the action history of the Holy Spirit.

 

[garee]

I know we've talked about this in the past, but I can't remember your position.

In your view, what happens to people who have never heard of Jesus? For example, your ancestors in Indonesia not so very long ago. Do they all have to go to hell?

We do not go to hell we are in it. The wage of sin, the wrath of God being revealed to the whole world by reason of suffering unto death and the returning to dust. This is not the new heavens and earth. The incorruptible.we are stil under the Sun.

The persons without the written law "death" will perish without it.

Some will perish according to it. God has mercy and grace on the remainder .

Death that caused the suffering of hell. It will be cast into the judgment of God. It will never rise again and condemn a entire creation to death.

We are saved by the law of faith the unseen work of the father. it works with the letter of the law created one perfect new law the law of salvation. Apart from each other death.

Romans 2:11-13 King James Version (KJV) For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

The doers below. We should believe and do the will without murmuring. Like. . . What about him or her. Can I first remove the speck from their eye? .?

Philippians 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

 

[garee]

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...i_doc_20151210_ebraismo-nostra-aetate_en.html

35. Since God has never revoked his covenant with his people Israel, there cannot be different paths or approaches to God’s salvation. The theory that there may be two different paths to salvation, the Jewish path without Christ and the path with the Christ, whom Christians believe is Jesus of Nazareth,

........ two different part of salvation Jewish part withou Christ....

Is that biblical?

Why Peter the first pope evangelized Jews?

Is that a mistake?

Don't vatican believed pope is infallible?

Yes they have installed him the patron saint creator, as their scapegoat used for denying the gospel of grace . Called a daysman in Job. God is not a man as us. Daysman a place were even the Son of man Jesus refused to stand as a abomination of desolation .Good Master .Only one can be served .Either the things-seen the temporal or the unseen eternal . Which master will we serve? Eternal ? or as far as our nose?

Peter has nothing to do with the performance of the gospel . We do not look to the corrupted flesh of men. The results could be harmful. Blasphemy, against the unseen Holy Spirit of God.

Catholicism as those who went out from us that do walk by faith not after a image of the Pope.It has nothing to do with Christianity they have another source of faith other than it as it is written in the law and prophets as oral traditions of sinful men mere commandments of sinners that look to be venerated self edification

The father rebuked Satan and said get behind Him and not sinful Peter the "serial denier" a picture of un-belief (no faith) .
he was forgiven of his blasphemy against the temporal things see Jesus. as the Son of man . Blasphemy against the unseen Son of God is not forgivable, ever. The 33 year window of opportunity is closed never to open ever again The one time demonstration of the Father and Son is finished .Just as he said .It is finish and of his own will the Son of man gave up the Spirit.

Nothing is attributed to the Satan inspired Mob as antichrists (many)

Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.Mathew 16: 23

 

[Dan_473]

This is from commission for religious relation with Jews

"THE GIFTS AND THE CALLING
OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE"
(Rom 11:29)

5. The universality of salvation in Jesus Christ and God’s unrevoked covenant with Israel

35. Since God has never revoked his covenant with his people Israel, there cannot be different paths or approaches to God’s salvation. The theory that there may be two different paths to salvation, the Jewish path without Christ and the path with the Christ, whom Christians believe is Jesus of Nazareth, would in fact endanger the foundations of Christian faith. Confessing the universal and therefore also exclusive mediation of salvation through Jesus Christ belongs to the core of Christian faith. So too does the confession of the one God, the God of Israel, who through his revelation in Jesus Christ has become totally manifest as the God of all peoples, insofar as in him the promise has been fulfilled that all peoples will pray to the God of Israel as the one God (cf. Is 56:1-8). The document "Notes on the correct way to present the Jews and Judaism in preaching and catechesis in the Roman Catholic Church" published by the Holy See’s Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews in 1985 therefore maintained that the Church and Judaism cannot be represented as "two parallel ways to salvation", but that the Church must "witness to Christ as the Redeemer for all" (No.I, 7). The Christian faith confesses that God wants to lead all people to salvation, that Jesus Christ is the universal mediator of salvation, and that there is no "other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved" (Acts 4:12).

That is from their own publication

Secular news not bias in this conclusion

Catholic believe god never cancel His Covenance with israel so there are 2 path of salvation

For Jews and for Christian than it mean she lie when when she say Islam in the plan of salvation, if so she must say there are 3 path, or their consider Islam is jews.



http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...i_doc_20151210_ebraismo-nostra-aetate_en.html

I think they are saying just the opposite.


From what you quoted in your post

"35. Since God has never revoked his covenant with his people Israel, there cannot be different paths or approaches to God’s salvation."


And again

"...the Church and Judaism cannot be represented as "two parallel ways to salvation","


And

"The Christian faith confesses that God wants to lead all people to salvation, that Jesus Christ is the universal mediator of salvation, and that there is no "other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved" (Acts 4:12)."


You might think they are contradicting themselves, but to say that they teach more than one path of salvation is not true.