Catholicism vs Protestantism

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
While you may see it as basing your belief on the Bible, it's extending things(your logical analysis) onto the text that aren't there. The Bible doesn't say Peter was there, but neither does it deny it so the tradition is possibly true. Rome certainly wasn't the center of Christianity until a few hundred years after the fact and is not the center now, but that's a separate issue from whether Peter was or wasn't there. The major error the Catholics make is claiming that a man was given all of the authority to dictate authoritative church doctrine and that claim is unsupportable both Biblically and historically. Peter, great apostle that he was, is demonstrably in error in Acts proving that there is no infallible source of doctrine besides the Holy Spirit. That said, it seems to me whether Peter was in Rome really only matters to someone trying to establish the papacy on that basis, which as I've said we can look through church history and see that the argument came from Leo 1 and was extended by Gregory VI and VII. The papacy is absolutely a false doctrine on multipl

And you believe Peter was a pastor in Rome since AD 32 when the Bible never mention Peter there not even a verse.

But logically speaking, if Peter was the president of the apostle, and was in Rome why the book of act that tell about Paul, his cabinet member there and not mention the boss at all?

To me it is impossible if the president and founder of the church of room there and the book of act wrote something that give an impression look like Paul is the founder of the Church of Rome.

But if you believe the author proven lie do many time, I only can pray hope Holy Spirit open your yes
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Did the holy Spirit stop telling the church to set apart certain people as apostles? Does the Bible talk about this? I can't find a place that it does.
I think Holy Spirit is the same today yesterday and forever, I believe a man want to be the boss and not listen to the Holy Spirit anymore, myself include, than we not hear when He talk.


Colossians 1

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

Paul is apostle by the will of God

Today a person become a pastor because graduate from bible school than ordain as pastor. I don't know if the church ever ordain Paul as an apostle it may but I never do reasearh
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
I think you're confusing two separate issues.


From The New York times article,

"It specified that “the Catholic Church neither conducts nor supports any specific institutional mission work directed towards Jews.” "


I'm pretty sure Catholics try to evangelize and convert everyone. The article is just saying that the church is not going to have a specific mission towards Jews.


I found this article which I think really clearly explains the Catholic position on the necessity of Jesus for salvation.

https://www.catholic.com/magazines/...ally-no-salvation-outside-the-catholic-church


"The Catholic Church teaches infallibly, “extra ecclesiam nulla salus,” or, “outside the Church there is no salvation.”


The article has lots of interesting parts and deals with the part of lumen gentium that you quoted, also. I think it would be great if we were to look at it together!

The title of article in the New York time is

Vatican say catholic should not convert Jews

Why you say catholic want to convert Jews

This is my analyses
1. You don't believe the reporter or you think reporter lie

2. Or you believe the reporter honest but catholic lie,lie because t
She want convert Jews but say no.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
I think you're confusing two separate issues.


From The New York times article,

"It specified that “the Catholic Church neither conducts nor supports any specific institutional mission work directed towards Jews.” "


I'm pretty sure Catholics try to evangelize and convert everyone. The article is just saying that the church is not going to have a specific mission towards Jews.


I found this article which I think really clearly explains the Catholic position on the necessity of Jesus for salvation.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/o...ally-no-salvation-outside-the-catholic-church


"The Catholic Church teaches infallibly, “extra ecclesiam nulla salus,” or, “outside the Church there is no salvation.”


The article has lots of interesting parts and deals with the part of lumen gentium that you quoted, also. I think it would be great if we were to look at it together!
This is the link from you


1.There is no salvation apart from Christ and his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Again, this is an infallible teaching and not up for debate among Catholics.
Those who are “invincibly” ignorant concerning the truth of #1 above will not be culpable for this lack of knowledge before God.
Those in the category of #2 have the real possibility of salvation even if they never come to an explicit knowledge of Christ and/or his Church.



So catholic believe no salvation out side Catholic Church, I believe otherwise no salvation in Catholic Church

But lack of knowledge like if people never hear about catholic exclude #1

Is that mean she say no need to convert Jews to make them lack of knowledge about catholic somthey save without convert to catholic?

Than say no need to convert all religion not only Jews.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
I think Holy Spirit is the same today yesterday and forever, I believe a man want to be the boss and not listen to the Holy Spirit anymore, myself include, than we not hear when He talk.


Colossians 1

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

Paul is apostle by the will of God

Today a person become a pastor because graduate from bible school than ordain as pastor. I don't know if the church ever ordain Paul as an apostle it may but I never do reasearh
Acts 13: 3 Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

The spirit told the church to set apart Paul and Barnabas, and then the church laid its hands on them. I think that's basically ordination.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
The title of article in the New York time is

Vatican say catholic should not convert Jews

Why you say catholic want to convert Jews

This is my analyses
1. You don't believe the reporter or you think reporter lie

2. Or you believe the reporter honest but catholic lie,lie because t
She want convert Jews but say no.
You know how sometimes people take things in the Bible out of context? It's probably the same with Catholic teaching. It's not good to take it out of context.

I think an expert in Catholic history and theology would be a better source than a New York times reporter.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
This is the link from you


1.There is no salvation apart from Christ and his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Again, this is an infallible teaching and not up for debate among Catholics.
Those who are “invincibly” ignorant concerning the truth of #1 above will not be culpable for this lack of knowledge before God.
Those in the category of #2 have the real possibility of salvation even if they never come to an explicit knowledge of Christ and/or his Church.



So catholic believe no salvation out side Catholic Church, I believe otherwise no salvation in Catholic Church

But lack of knowledge like if people never hear about catholic exclude #1

Is that mean she say no need to convert Jews to make them lack of knowledge about catholic somthey save without convert to catholic?

Than say no need to convert all religion not only Jews.
Did you read the whole article in the link?

Would you like to go through it step-by-step?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
@Jackson123

"But logically speaking, if Peter was the president of the apostle, and was in Rome why the book of act that tell about Paul, his cabinet member there and not mention the boss at all?"

I'm not really interested in whether Peter was in Rome or not, either.

But silence from the book of Acts is not a good reason to think he wasn't there, imo.


Acts is not a complete history, it leaves out a lot of things. The things that are included tell a particular story, show a particular point. At least that's how I read it.


Also, did you say that when the leaders of the Jews met Paul they hadn't heard of Christianity? I can't remember if you said that or not. Anyways, it looks to me like there are Christians in Rome before Paul arrives, and the Jewish leaders have heard about Christianity.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
You know how sometimes people take things in the Bible out of context? It's probably the same with Catholic teaching. It's not good to take it out of context.

I think an expert in Catholic history and theology would be a better source than a New York times reporter.
So you believe reporter wrote out of context? Can you show me step by step why you believe that writer was write out of context, while lumen gentium seem support it.

Let me quote lumen gentium about Muslim one more time

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127)

But the plan of salvation include...........Muslim

So catholic that say no salvation outside the church change her mind, now she believe Muslim included.



Why??

Read next sentence

Because catholic believe Muslim professing the faith of abraham and share the same God with catholic.

That is lie, I am from Muslim country, Muslim do not believe Jesus is God

If they adore Abraham God they will believe Jesus is God

This verse (126) also implied no need convert Islam, they are already in the plan of salvation
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
@Jackson123

"But logically speaking, if Peter was the president of the apostle, and was in Rome why the book of act that tell about Paul, his cabinet member there and not mention the boss at all?"

I'm not really interested in whether Peter was in Rome or not, either.

But silence from the book of Acts is not a good reason to think he wasn't there, imo.


Acts is not a complete history, it leaves out a lot of things. The things that are included tell a particular story, show a particular point. At least that's how I read it.


Also, did you say that when the leaders of the Jews met Paul they hadn't heard of Christianity? I can't remember if you said that or not. Anyways, it looks to me like there are Christians in Rome before Paul arrives, and the Jewish leaders have heard about Christianity.
Silence from the book of act also not evidence PETER THERE, IT IS STRONG INDICATION that catholic history is lie

Act give a credit to Paul as the founder of the Church of Rome if Peter the president of apostle was the founder is that look reasonable. It is manner violation and lie isn't it
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Did you read the whole article in the link?

Would you like to go through it step-by-step?
I did that is why I ask you a question

1. No salvation outside catholic

2 in the event, lack of knowledge #1 invalid

For example if Jews never hear about catholic than it may save outside catholic

Is that why she say no need to convert Jews to make Jews lack of knowledge so they save without convert?

In this case why not say, no need to convert all religion to make them lack of knowledge so they save without catholic.

I believe lumen gentium design to make a way toward one world religion to support one world government that is antichrist government
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Also, did you say that when the leaders of the Jews met Paul they hadn't heard of Christianity? I can't remember if you said that or not. Anyways, it looks to me like there are Christians in Rome before Paul arrives, and the Jewish leaders have heard about Christianity.

Act 28

21 And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.

22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.

After president Peter preach for 28 years about this sect Jews want to know from Paul about this sect (Christianity) Peter the president that have more authority HDR been teach about this sect for 28 years now they want to know from Peters man?

And after 28 years Peter preach there they only know every where people spoke bad thing about this sect

To me it is strong indication Peter never there and mean the foundation of who pope is, is lie and this religion is lie
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
So you believe reporter wrote out of context?
Not so much the writing of the reporter, but I think you're tending to take a single statement or paragraph and not consider loads of other statements and writing.


Kind of like the atheist who reads

Psalm 137: 9 Happy shall he be, who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock.

And then says, "See? Christians like to kill babies."
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Silence from the book of act also not evidence PETER THERE, IT IS STRONG INDICATION that catholic history is lie
Well, we disagree there. I think you are interpreting the book of Acts incorrectly.
Act give a credit to Paul as the founder of the Church of Rome
Which part of Acts are you looking at there?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
I did that is why I ask you a question

1. No salvation outside catholic

2 in the event, lack of knowledge #1 invalid

For example if Jews never hear about catholic than it may save outside catholic

Is that why she say no need to convert Jews to make Jews lack of knowledge so they save without convert?

In this case why not say, no need to convert all religion to make them lack of knowledge so they save without catholic.

I believe lumen gentium design to make a way toward one world religion to support one world government that is antichrist government
Hang on there, one step at a time.


"Those who are “invincibly” ignorant concerning the truth of #1 above will not be culpable for this lack of knowledge before God."

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/o...ally-no-salvation-outside-the-catholic-church


Do you disagree with this? Now, I'm not asking if you think it contradicts something else they said. I'm asking if you believe that those who are invincibly ignorant are culpable before God?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Act 28

21 And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.

22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.

After president Peter preach for 28 years about this sect Jews want to know from Paul about this sect (Christianity) Peter the president that have more authority HDR been teach about this sect for 28 years now they want to know from Peters man?

And after 28 years Peter preach there they only know every where people spoke bad thing about this sect

To me it is strong indication Peter never there and mean the foundation of who pope is, is lie and this religion is lie
In what I wrote in the post that you quoted, I wasn't talking specifically about Peter being in Rome.

I was talking about the presence of Christianity and Christians in Rome before Paul arrived.

Acts 28: 14 So we came to Rome. 15 From there the brothers, when they heard of us, came to meet us as far as The Market of Appius and The Three Taverns. When Paul saw them, he thanked God, and took courage.

So there were already Brothers in Rome who came to meet Paul.

Romans 1: 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, that your faith is proclaimed throughout the whole world.


The faith of Roman Christians, before the arrival of Paul, had been proclaimed throughout the whole world.


Romans 1: 13 Now I don't desire to have you unaware, brothers, that I often planned to come to you, and was hindered so far, that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among the rest of the Gentiles.


But Paul had never met them.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
If you trust history, than read the book of act, this book is accurate history, honest not lie.

The book of act is history or action of the apostle
Not to get technical but the word apostle is one of the most abused words destroying the intent or meaning in several places by a oral tradition of men .. Its an action of the unseen Spirit moving the apostle to both will and do His good pleasure. . The apostles like the apostle Jesus did not hide the fact they were doing the will of the father in heaven not seen.

To venerate an image like an apostle only shows things got turned upside down .(blasphemy) What the eyes see could afford no understanding as something they could claim of them selves. Paul moved by the Spirit like us knew no claims of fame . If we have received it as it is written why even think about boasting and lose of first love the hearing of faith.

God giving us his Faithful understanding.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Not so much the writing of the reporter, but I think you're tending to take a single statement or paragraph and not consider loads of other statements and writing.


Kind of like the atheist who reads

Psalm 137: 9 Happy shall he be, who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock.

And then says, "See? Christians like to kill babies."
So you believe the writer is honest but I only take single statement not consider the rest.

My brother, you have to read the article one more time. I am not quite the paragraph, I am quote the title

I google about title

Quote

Declarative titles – state the main findings or conclusions (e.g. ‘A three-month weight loss program increases self-esteem in adolescent girls’)
Descriptive titles – describe the subject of the article but do not reveal the main conclusions (e.g. ‘The effects of family support on patients with dementia’).
Interrogative titles – introduce the subject in the form of a question (e.g. ‘Does cognitive training improve performance on pattern recognition tasks?’)

End quote

I believe on that article the title is the conclusion or what is the whole picture on this article

And the conclusion is

Vatican say catholic do not need to convert Jews

In other hand you only read or emphasized one of the paragraph and say Vatican want convert Jews. And I don't know what paragraph say that

The writer itself conclude and make a title Vatican say catholic do not need to convert Jews

And you believe the writer honest don't you?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Not to get technical but the word apostle is one of the most abused words destroying the intent or meaning in several places by a oral tradition of men .. Its an action of the unseen Spirit moving the apostle to both will and do His good pleasure. . The apostles like the apostle Jesus did not hide the fact they were doing the will of the father in heaven not seen.

To venerate an image like an apostle only shows things got turned upside down .(blasphemy) What the eyes see could afford no understanding as something they could claim of them selves. Paul moved by the Spirit like us knew no claims of fame . If we have received it as it is written why even think about boasting and lose of first love the hearing of faith.

God giving us his Faithful understanding.

I agree not the act of the apostle but we need the act of the Holy Spirit so don't pray to the apostle