Not By Works

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Bbrdrd said:
This is exactly my dispute. It is not Christ's righteousness that we are reckoned with. It is not His obedience vicariously transfered to us. Our faith is reckoned as righteousness because through that faith He will teach us righteousness. We are healed, not vindicated, by the stripes of Christ.
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You are covered and hidden in HIS covering...just as Paul clearly states...Paul, who through CHRIST so powerfully at work in him, had much to boast about...but he rather said, he wanted to be found in HIM, not having a righteousness of his own...
Philippians 3
 
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miknik5 said:
You are covered and hidden in HIS covering...just as Paul clearly states...Paul, who through CHRIST so powerfully at work in him, had much to boast about...but he rather said, he wanted to be found in HIM, not having a righteousness of his own...
Philippians 3
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Once again using half quotes. "Not having a righteousness of my own according to the law" He was not saying that somehow God would be fooled into thinking that Christ's righteousness was his. We are all law breakers, this is true. But the point of grace is that righteousness is not reckoned purely by performance to the law. That does not mean that obedience to God is not our duty, merely that righteousness leaves room for things like mercy and restoration.
 
Bbrdrd said:
Once again using half quotes. "Not having a righteousness of my own according to the law" He was not saying that somehow God would be fooled into thinking that Christ's righteousness was his. We are all law breakers, this is true. But the point of grace is that righteousness is not reckoned purely by performance to the law. That does not mean that obedience to God is not our duty, merely that righteousness leaves room for things like mercy and restoration.
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what?

Paul was reminding the philippians not to put their confidence in their flesh...

I´m not sure what you are saying...
 
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Bbrdrd said:
Once again using half quotes. "Not having a righteousness of my own according to the law" He was not saying that somehow God would be fooled into thinking that Christ's righteousness was his. We are all law breakers, this is true. But the point of grace is that righteousness is not reckoned purely by performance to the law. That does not mean that obedience to God is not our duty, merely that righteousness leaves room for things like mercy and restoration.
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You did use half quotes because Paul goes on to clearly say...I want to be found in HIM, not having a righteousness of my own...you took the ending half, but left off the most important explanation to the ending half...that is, remaining IN HIM...CHRIST JESUS...
 
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Bbrdrd said:
This is exactly my dispute. It is not Christ's righteousness that we are reckoned with. It is not His obedience vicariously transfered to us. Our faith is reckoned as righteousness because through that faith He will teach us righteousness. We are healed, not vindicated, by the stripes of Christ.
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The righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer.

The entire reason for what he did was to make this possible.
 
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Bbrdrd said:
He was not saying that somehow God would be fooled into thinking that Christ's righteousness was his.
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um yeah because we're not 'fooling God' or 'tricking Him' into being saved by Him.

this is His plan and His Way that we may be saved. the imputation of His righteousness by grace through faith.
this is the blood on the mercy seat, and the snake that eats the snakes of the sorcerers; the looking to the brazen serpent on a cross
it's not by our works; not even a little bit.
 
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miknik5 said:
what?

Paul was reminding the philippians not to put their confidence in their flesh...

I´m not sure what you are saying...
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I agree with that assessment, but obedience to God is not faith in the flesh. The point is that you(either purposely or simply because you have seen it done so often) are prooftexting with that verse and not quoting the whole thing which doesn't deny righteousness, merely reaffirms that it doesn't come via the law. The black-or-white idea of absolute righteousness is a very fleshly way of looking at it, God is able to discern who deserves mercy and who deserves wrath and those who fall into either camp will receive their own ends. Any judge who gave a one size fits all punishment would be an unjust judge, yet you accept that God is capable of such injustice?
 
posthuman said:
um yeah because we're not 'fooling God' or 'tricking Him' into being saved by Him.

this is His plan and His Way that we may be saved. the imputation of His righteousness by grace through faith.
this is the blood on the mercy seat, and the snake that eats the snakes of the sorcerers; the looking to the brazen serpent on a cross
it's not by our works; not even a little bit.
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Amen!!!
 
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EleventhHour said:
The righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer.

The entire reason for what he did was to make this possible.
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No, it's not. That's a protestant doctrine that comes from a twisted view of anthropology and justice. It's a teaching of men and its fruits are apparent.
 
miknik5 said:
what?

Paul was reminding the philippians not to put their confidence in their flesh...

I´m not sure what you are saying...
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further, I think it needs to be said that while most of Paul´s letters were to churches that were erring, the church at Philippi seemed to be doing okay...the letter seems to be a letter of encouragement to a church that had been walking in the way, but were facing troubles...Paul´s letter wasn´t one of correction but encouragement.
 
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Bbrdrd said:
No, it's not. That's a protestant doctrine that comes from a twisted view of anthropology and justice. It's a teaching of men and its fruits are apparent.
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Can you tell me how we can approach the throne apart from the right vestments?

Was it ever allowed for one to enter in behind the curtain?
No...

One needed the right garment and needed incense in their breast pocket.

My mention of the incense is because , to those who are saved, CHRIST is a sweet savor...it is the aroma before GOD of HIS SON, sir...and the ONLY SACRIFICE acceptable...

Apart from HIS SACRIFICE, one can not enter in...no matter how good their works...
 
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Bbrdrd said:
No, it's not. That's a protestant doctrine that comes from a twisted view of anthropology and justice. It's a teaching of men and its fruits are apparent.
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Well Mr Bdrd...I am about to go out for a much needed long run after the antics on this thread today... and just so you know I am not face palming you it is not personal I am face palming myself ...as in I should have known better!!!

But I highly recommend you read the Letter to the Romans in the meantime :)


....but when I get back I will show you that you are incorrect.
 
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miknik5 said:
Can you tell me how we can approach the throne apart from the right vestments?

Was it ever allowed for one to enter in behind the curtain?
No...

One needed the right garment and needed incense in their breast pocket.

My mention of the incense is because , to those who are saved, CHRIST is a sweet savor...it is the aroma before GOD of HIS SON, sir...and the ONLY SACRIFICE acceptable...

Apart from HIS SACRIFICE, one can not enter in...no matter how good their works...
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You're conflating several things. No one approaches the throne without being cleansed by the atoning sacrifice, but Christ did not vicarious take God's wrath on our account. There is no fiction in the righteousness of faith, and it is the faith that is accounted as righteousness not Christ's vicarious obedience. God is a just judge whose justice is linked with mercy and kindness, not retribution.
 
EleventhHour said:
Well Mr Bdrd...I am about to go out for a much needed long run after the antics on this thread today... and just so you know I am not face palming you it is not personal I am face palming myself ...as in I should have known better!!!

But I highly recommend you read the Letter to the Romans in the meantime :)


....but when I get back I will show you that you are incorrect.
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What a boast! I've read through Romans enough, I think I'll stick with the books I'm in already for now. But your mentioning of Romans gives me the inkling that you're going to make the same faux pas as Luther and rather than letting Scripture breathe in its own context interpreting it through your opinion on a single book.
 
Bbrdrd said:
Re-read that verse. "According to the law of Moses..." Is God beholden to the law of Moses? Or did He make Himself subject to it for righteousness sake?
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Reread what?

no one fulfilled the law of moses, so all have been cursed by the law

the law required sacrifice of an innocent for atonement of sin

jesus fulfilled not only the moral code, which no one else did, but the sacrificial requirement

like Paul said in galations.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed iseveryone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is [d]justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

he fulfilled the law as the lamb of God for all people
 
Bbrdrd said:
You should re-read Job. He declares himself innocent, God agrees. God declares him blameless and upright in the beginning, allows the devil to prove his righteousness, and then vindicates Job's basic position though both agree Job spoke some rash words. The whole of the Bible testifies that there are the righteous and the wicked, and single verses out of context do not discredit the full witness of Scripture. I've already addressed Romans 3:3 earlier by going back to the Psalm Paul was quoting showing that it couldn't be making a sweeping declaration and instead Paul was using it rhetorically to tell the Jews "you are not more righteous than the gentiles because the law was revealed to you." It is this very doctrine of man that has born much poisonous fruit and perverted the true gospel.
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You should reread paul

for all have sinned and fall short

all includes Job.
 
Bbrdrd said:
Faith is the placing of trust into the source of righteousness. It is listening to the voice of God and trusting Him to be your Shepherd.

O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless? 21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did
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So having faith in him for saving us is not really required
 
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