Doctrines like Limited Atonement - why?

[John146]

Only his sheep (born again children of God) hear and believe (John 10:26-27). Those that were ordained to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48).

That leaves out Gentiles, because Gentiles are not sheep.😉. Paul never calls them sheep.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Then you deny the Lord’s words in John 3.

John 3 has 36 verses. What verses do you claim that I deny?

 

[John146]

Only his sheep (born again children of God) hear and believe (John 10:26-27). Those that were ordained to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48).

The question is when. According to John 3 a person could not be born again until the cross. It’s very clear.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Sure, but the context of Joshua appears to be implying more than simply comforts and "the good life" but the full blessings of the covenant and whether that covenant promised eternal life seems to be decided ex post facto rather than looking at how the original audience understood it. It was presented as if it was the means through which the promises to the primal people would be achieved, and it's clear from Joseph's end of life request that resurrection and eternal life were among the hopes of the people. It's only in a world where reformed doctrines are needing to be justified that splitting hairs between God promising temporal comforts and blessings vs eternal rewards becomes necessary. I see no reason, within the context of the choice, to not perceive it as a promise of life eternal and the full reception of the promises.

You perceive it the way you want to. As for myself, I believe scripture proves scripture when compared to each other and they must all harmonize before we can understand the doctrine that Jesus taught. The inspired word of God should be our only source of gleaning the truths within them along with the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That leaves out Gentiles, because Gentiles are not sheep.😉. Paul never calls them sheep.

Rev 5:9, And they sang a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. I think that this would include the Gentiles also.

 

[Bbrdrd]

You perceive it the way you want to. As for myself, I believe scripture proves scripture when compared to each other and they must all harmonize before we can understand the doctrine that Jesus taught. The inspired word of God should be our only source of gleaning the truths within them along with the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

If that were possible, I would agree. But it ignores the fact that we come the Bible with ideas first and then organize it to make sense. We have to prioritize passages, we have to determine what the scope and overall meaning of a given passage is, we even have to decide what the best translation is first. We have to ask the right questions in order to get the right meaning. One of those questions is how would the original audience have understood the passage, which requires knowing about the history of the period and gleaning their mindset as best we can. It also means recognizing the kinds of things we bring to the text that may shift the meaning, like particular doctrinal instruction. In the west an Augustinian conception of original sin is almost inescapable and that conception changes what we think the issue Jesus came to solve even is, let alone how He solved it or our role in the matter.

 

[John146]

Rev 5:9, And they sang a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. I think that this would include the Gentiles also.

Yes, Gentiles also, but we are never sheep. Sheep is a specific reference to the Jews.

 

[Lightskin]

How about Trump?

“The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever he will.” Proverbs 21:1 (KJV 1900)

Trump is king? Houston we have a problem.

 

[Lightskin]

In scripture's behalf. Some of Calvinism is true.

What part?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes, Gentiles also, but we are never sheep. Sheep is a specific reference to the Jews.

It would be nice, if you would give scripture quotes with your statements. John 10:26, But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. Jesus is speaking to some of the Jews. Give me a scripture that says that sheep is a specific reference to the Jews.

 

[John146]

It would be nice, if you would give scripture quotes with your statements. John 10:26, But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. Jesus is speaking to some of the Jews. Give me a scripture that says that sheep is a specific reference to the Jews.

Give a reference by Paul calling Gentiles sheep.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

If that were possible, I would agree. But it ignores the fact that we come the Bible with ideas first and then organize it to make sense. We have to prioritize passages, we have to determine what the scope and overall meaning of a given passage is, we even have to decide what the best translation is first. We have to ask the right questions in order to get the right meaning. One of those questions is how would the original audience have understood the passage, which requires knowing about the history of the period and gleaning their mindset as best we can. It also means recognizing the kinds of things we bring to the text that may shift the meaning, like particular doctrinal instruction. In the west an Augustinian conception of original sin is almost inescapable and that conception changes what we think the issue Jesus came to solve even is, let alone how He solved it or our role in the matter.

The Holy Spirit within us will never reveal the truths contained within the scriptures if our mindset is that we are smart enough to organise it to make sense. When I was 50 years old I had the mindset that I was smart enough to understand the scriptures where they seemingly would not contradict each other. After buying a Strong's concordance and attending all kinds of denominations of churches, taking notes and going home to study to see if they made any sense in untangling the contradicting scriptures, which they did not. I was stubborn enough that I put 12 years of hard studying in with no progress of understanding.

At age 62 I finally gave up thinking that I would have to go through the rest of my life not understanding the scriptures. I cannot remember the time laps until the Holy Spirit began revealing some truths of the scriptures to me, and the scriptures began gradually harmonizing with each other.

I realized that if the Holy Spirit had revealed truths to me within that 12 year span, I would have taken credit for it myself. For 12 years I was not denying myself (my own entelect). Once I denied myself, all of the hard studying I had done began to pay off as the Holy Spirit began to rapidly reveal things to me. Yes! It is possible.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Give a reference by Paul calling Gentiles sheep.

John 10:16, Who do you think the other sheep that are not of this fold are, if not the Gentiles.

Now give me a scripture that says that sheep is a specific reference to the Jews.

 

[Bbrdrd]

The Holy Spirit within us will never reveal the truths contained within the scriptures if our mindset is that we are smart enough to organise it to make sense. When I was 50 years old I had the mindset that I was smart enough to understand the scriptures where they seemingly would not contradict each other. After buying a Strong's concordance and attending all kinds of denominations of churches, taking notes and going home to study to see if they made any sense in untangling the contradicting scriptures, which they did not. I was stubborn enough that I put 12 years of hard studying in with no progress of understanding.

At age 62 I finally gave up thinking that I would have to go through the rest of my life not understanding the scriptures. I cannot remember the time laps until the Holy Spirit began revealing some truths of the scriptures to me, and the scriptures began gradually harmonizing with each other.

I realized that if the Holy Spirit had revealed truths to me within that 12 year span, I would have taken credit for it myself. For 12 years I was not denying myself (my own entelect). Once I denied myself, all of the hard studying I had done began to pay off as the Holy Spirit began to rapidly reveal things to me. Yes! It is possible.

Seems like a bit of a non-starter to me. While taking the attitude that we can harmonize everything and understand it all in our own power would certainly be mistaken, what the Holy Spirit reveals is not some mysterious woo. Scripture has a meaning in context and the words within it don't take on a new definition because the new meaning fits better with our preconceived doctrine.

 

[John146]

John 10:16, Who do you think the other sheep that are not of this fold are, if not the Gentiles.

Now give me a scripture that says that sheep is a specific reference to the Jews.

Ezekiel 34 and 37 describe the two flocks being the Jews at His first coming and th3 Jews at His second coming.

 

[Dave-L]

What part?

I came to believe the first 3 of the 5 points are true. The visible institutional church, infant baptism, is false. Amillennialism is true if you substitute an invisible Church for the visible Church. Possibly a few more corrections.

 

[Dave-L]

Trump is king? Houston we have a problem.

Use your Reformed hermeneutic skills. BTW, did your seminary side with Clark or VanTill? What's their position on Common Grace?

 

[Dave-L]

When can a person be born again? Jesus said that one is born again after the cross and when man believes on Him. Therefore, it is impossible for those before the cross to be born again.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

All believers in the OT were born again.

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

Compare to:

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave-L]

Absolutely, the Holy Spirit is within me and Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in the heavenly places. Why do you ask?

If you have the Holy Spirit, your soul is present with Christ now, and after you die.

 

[Dave-L]

I believe we make choices every day. Paul made choices (Phil 1:22)

Choose to save yourself legalistically? As in free will?