Is it a sin to drink alcohol

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,951
13,615
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regarding my idea of wisdom

is Proverbs 31:6-7 to be taken as it is written or is it to be taken to mean the opposite of what it literally says, what is your view?

is it sarcastic foolishness or is it wisdom?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
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Read the book then, for it was what was recommended first. :) They have a return policy.
I'm amused by your "Disagree" to my statement. Do you think it was not the most biased piece of hogwash that I have had the misfortune of viewing? Who are you to assess my opinion anyway?

I also noticed that you have given (and received) more "Disagree" responses than anything else. Maybe you should re-evaluate your reasons for being on this site.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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No, your question is based in a incorrect apriori (false assumption, ie "every 2 hours"). I did not assume what you thought I assumed. I assumed no such thing as you proffered for my position. Straw man.
But you assume wine in Cana wedding party mean grape juice don't you?

I say you assumed because the Bible not say that it was grape juice
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
136
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But you assume wine in Cana wedding party mean grape juice don't you?
No. There is no assumption. I understand how the word 'wine' is used in its proper contexts, and throughout the whole of scripture. I cited many texts in evidence. I assumed nothing.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
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it came from people saying that alcohol is sinful
Actually, it is drinking alcohol that is sinful. Alcohol of itself can be used as a disinfectant externally, for cleaning, etc.

Just as a pig is unclean and not to be eaten, but the pig is useful as a creature.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
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No. There is no assumption. I understand how the word 'wine' is used in its proper contexts, and throughout the whole of scripture. I cited many texts in evidence. I assumed nothing.
Don't you believe wine can be grape juice or alcoholic grape juice?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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Romans 14

21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

Is the word wine in this verse mean grape juice?


Is that posible If one drink grape juice couse weak brother fall?

Seem to me wine in this verse mean alcoholic drink
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
136
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Romans 14

21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

Is the word wine in this verse mean grape juice?
Yes.

Is that posible If one drink grape juice couse weak brother fall?
Yes. Nazarites still existed. Nazarites were becoming Christians, but Christ's death doesn't negate the time of their vow. Therefore, though it is normally fine to drink the juice of the grape, eat things of the grape (raisins, etc), but when near Nazarites, caution is needful, lest they deny their vow made to God. Also, the matter was between days of eating (feasting) and not eating (fasting).

Romans 14, the quick of it.

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.​
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.​
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.​
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.​
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.​
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.​
Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.​

This is used to teach that God regards not any day as Holy, such as the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11), and that all days or no days may be kept at man's whim. Yet that is not what Romans 14 (and yea, all of Romans) teaches at all. Notice carefully,

[1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking.​
[2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on​
[3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem:​
Luk_16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.​
The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]​
[4] the words for sabbath is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans​
[5] the words of the seventh day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans​
[6] the words for the Lord's day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans​
[7] Romans 14 is in the context of Romans 13, which directly cites the latter (2nd) table of the Ten Commandments, for love to neighbour, which is also found in Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments​
[8] Romans 15 is the other end, and when combined with 1 Corinthians 8-10, the context is clear that the sabbath of the LORD thy God (Exodus 20:8-11) is not in view in the least, and is sustained by the rest of Paul in Romans by his statements on the eternal spiritual, holy, just and good Law (Exodus 20:1-17) of God, which identifies what sin is (Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)​
[9] the entire context of Romans 14 is to do nothing (even if allowed normally, yet not under special circumstances) to cause others to sin:​
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.​
[10] Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken, John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17) at any point:​
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?​
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?​
Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.​
Rom_7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.​
[11] the words for "law", "commandments" are never used in Romans 14​
[12] Paul in numerous places lists and upholds every single one of the Ten Commandments in the NT, including the 4th Commandment (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) in Hebrews 3-4, etc.​
[13] Romans 14 is about excluding those things which were "doubful disputations", and not a single one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) were ever doubtful or to be disputed in any place in all of scripture (KJB), for the Commandment of God are "sure" (Psalms 111:7).​
[14] the words for "covenant/testament" are never used in Romans 14​
[15] the words for 'first [day] of the week' are never used in Romans 14, neither in all of Romans​
[16] none of the 'Sunday' (first [day] of the week) churches use Romans 14 to teach that I may ignore the day they gather on, even though that day is not sanctified by God in any way what so ever in scripture (KJB), and is never called "the Lord's day" in scripture, neither is it "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God".​
[17] nobody uses Romans 14 to teach I can simply stop eating/drinking on every day​
[18] anyone who quotes Romans 14, has in mind 'restrictions', rather than allowances​

Let's look at the details of Romans 14.

Romans 14 KJB, deals with the days that "man esteemeth" among men, see Luke 16:15 KJB. God esteems His Holy day [Job 23:12; Psalms 119:126-128 KJB].

The "day" in Romans 14 is associated with eating and not eating, among "men", which are days set apart for men for fasting/feasting, etc. The Jews had constantly fought with one another over which days were better to do this or that [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]. Some Jews decide that any day was fine to do any of those things, while others had specific days picked out for those things [see also the historical source the "Didache"]. Paul stated it didn't matter, and each was fine, so long as either side did it unto the LORD, to the glory of God, not for personal gain/prestige/notice [as the Pharisees had done], but that what mattered was brotherly love within the body, preferring one another. Connect Romans 14, to 1 Corinthians 8-10 KJB. There were issues with the Gentile believers purchasing food in the shambles [marketplaces] which may have been blessed or offered before idols, and some Jews, and possibly Gentiles believers which took offence at anyone partaking of those things. Paul stated that an Idol is nothing, but the persons for whom Christ Jesus died were of value, and therefore, regard the conscience of another, and cause no one to sin, even if what was eaten was immediately lawful to a person, but such freedom within God's law, not everything is always expedient, or best to do at all times. There were also Jewish believers in Christ who still under their vows, even Nazarite vows, and thus things of the vine in matters of eating and drinking would come into play as well. Just because Christ Jesus died on the Cross, doesn't negate their vow - they still had to carry out what they said they would do. If you Read Romans 1-13, the Law, the Ten Commandments of God are spoken of and cited throughout, as eternal, as the judge of sin [Romans 7:7 KJB; in fact how did you know you needed as Saviour? What Law was transgressed by yourself? Exodus 20:1-17 KJB], and Romans 15-16 continue and complete this picture. God's Ten Commandments are Eternal [Psalms 89:34 KJB], His Sabbath from Genesis to Revelation, even into the New Heavens and New Earth [Isaiah 66:22-23 KJB].

Seem to me wine in this verse mean alcoholic drink
"Seems' is relying upon yourself, rather than the word of God as authority.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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@WithinReason Again, is the church you attend KJVO and teetotalers? Why the avoidance of answering this? I've asked you twice, now three times. :)
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
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Now you're going further of the rails. You are mixing the Law with grace by making this statement. Swine is fine.
You gave this the 'x' , now tell me where in the NT swine is forbidden. God told Peter to eat, and pork was there as well. What He has cleansed, you are calling common. :(
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
136
43
You gave this the 'x' , now tell me where in the NT swine is forbidden. God told Peter to eat, and pork was there as well. What He has cleansed, you are calling common. :(
Read Acts 10-11 a litle more closely, then read Acts 15, then read 1 Peter 1:15-16, and Revelation 16:13, 18:2. "Unclean" right in the NT, for Christians. :) If you need the details, I would be glad to show more from the scripture, right from the very places (and others) cited.

Act_11:8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.​

Long after the Cross.

Acts 10-11, notice, the entire point of the vision:

Act_10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.​
'P.S.' 'common' (koinon) and 'unclean' (akathartos; or abomination, bdelugma) are two differing things.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Yes.

Yes. Nazarites still existed. Nazarites were becoming Christians, but Christ's death doesn't negate the time of their vow. Therefore, though it is normally fine to drink the juice of the grape, eat things of the grape (raisins, etc), but when near Nazarites, caution is needful, lest they deny their vow made to God. Also, the matter was between days of eating (feasting) and not eating (fasting).

Romans 14, the quick of it.

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.​
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.​
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.​
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.​
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.​
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.​
Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.​

This is used to teach that God regards not any day as Holy, such as the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11), and that all days or no days may be kept at man's whim. Yet that is not what Romans 14 (and yea, all of Romans) teaches at all. Notice carefully,

[1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking.​
[2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on​
[3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem:​
Luk_16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.​
The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]​
[4] the words for sabbath is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans​
[5] the words of the seventh day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans​
[6] the words for the Lord's day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans​
[7] Romans 14 is in the context of Romans 13, which directly cites the latter (2nd) table of the Ten Commandments, for love to neighbour, which is also found in Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments​
[8] Romans 15 is the other end, and when combined with 1 Corinthians 8-10, the context is clear that the sabbath of the LORD thy God (Exodus 20:8-11) is not in view in the least, and is sustained by the rest of Paul in Romans by his statements on the eternal spiritual, holy, just and good Law (Exodus 20:1-17) of God, which identifies what sin is (Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)​
[9] the entire context of Romans 14 is to do nothing (even if allowed normally, yet not under special circumstances) to cause others to sin:​
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.​
[10] Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken, John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17) at any point:​
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?​
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?​
Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.​
Rom_7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.​
[11] the words for "law", "commandments" are never used in Romans 14​
[12] Paul in numerous places lists and upholds every single one of the Ten Commandments in the NT, including the 4th Commandment (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) in Hebrews 3-4, etc.​
[13] Romans 14 is about excluding those things which were "doubful disputations", and not a single one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) were ever doubtful or to be disputed in any place in all of scripture (KJB), for the Commandment of God are "sure" (Psalms 111:7).​
[14] the words for "covenant/testament" are never used in Romans 14​
[15] the words for 'first [day] of the week' are never used in Romans 14, neither in all of Romans​
[16] none of the 'Sunday' (first [day] of the week) churches use Romans 14 to teach that I may ignore the day they gather on, even though that day is not sanctified by God in any way what so ever in scripture (KJB), and is never called "the Lord's day" in scripture, neither is it "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God".​
[17] nobody uses Romans 14 to teach I can simply stop eating/drinking on every day​
[18] anyone who quotes Romans 14, has in mind 'restrictions', rather than allowances​

Let's look at the details of Romans 14.

Romans 14 KJB, deals with the days that "man esteemeth" among men, see Luke 16:15 KJB. God esteems His Holy day [Job 23:12; Psalms 119:126-128 KJB].

The "day" in Romans 14 is associated with eating and not eating, among "men", which are days set apart for men for fasting/feasting, etc. The Jews had constantly fought with one another over which days were better to do this or that [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]. Some Jews decide that any day was fine to do any of those things, while others had specific days picked out for those things [see also the historical source the "Didache"]. Paul stated it didn't matter, and each was fine, so long as either side did it unto the LORD, to the glory of God, not for personal gain/prestige/notice [as the Pharisees had done], but that what mattered was brotherly love within the body, preferring one another. Connect Romans 14, to 1 Corinthians 8-10 KJB. There were issues with the Gentile believers purchasing food in the shambles [marketplaces] which may have been blessed or offered before idols, and some Jews, and possibly Gentiles believers which took offence at anyone partaking of those things. Paul stated that an Idol is nothing, but the persons for whom Christ Jesus died were of value, and therefore, regard the conscience of another, and cause no one to sin, even if what was eaten was immediately lawful to a person, but such freedom within God's law, not everything is always expedient, or best to do at all times. There were also Jewish believers in Christ who still under their vows, even Nazarite vows, and thus things of the vine in matters of eating and drinking would come into play as well. Just because Christ Jesus died on the Cross, doesn't negate their vow - they still had to carry out what they said they would do. If you Read Romans 1-13, the Law, the Ten Commandments of God are spoken of and cited throughout, as eternal, as the judge of sin [Romans 7:7 KJB; in fact how did you know you needed as Saviour? What Law was transgressed by yourself? Exodus 20:1-17 KJB], and Romans 15-16 continue and complete this picture. God's Ten Commandments are Eternal [Psalms 89:34 KJB], His Sabbath from Genesis to Revelation, even into the New Heavens and New Earth [Isaiah 66:22-23 KJB].

"Seems' is relying upon yourself, rather than the word of God as authority.
So not drink grape juice afraid nazarite fall?

Why Jesus publicly turn water to wine? Jesus no afraid Nazarites refuse to accept Him?
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
Read Acts 10-11 a litle more closely, then read Acts 15, then read 1 Peter 1:15-16, and Revelation 16:13, 18:2. "Unclean" right in the NT, for Christians. :) If you need the details, I would be glad to show more from the scripture, right from the very places (and others) cited.

Act_11:8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.​

Long after the Cross.

Acts 10-11, notice, the entire point of the vision:

Act_10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.​
'P.S.' 'common' (koinon) and 'unclean' (akathartos; or abomination, bdelugma) are two differing things.
Twisting the scriptures to your own destruction is not the way to go. When Paul mentioned eating meat, he said to eat it. There were limitations to what they were to eat in the OT where God clearly forbade them from eating pork, animals that chewed the cud, etc. 1 Peter 1:15-16 has nothing to do with eating swine. Not even remotely close. "that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood"[Acts 15:20] has NOTHING to do with eating or abstaining from swine. Your stretching the text there Armstrong.