Is it a sin to drink alcohol

[WithinReason]

Yes, Noah got drunk on alcoholic wine. Not grape juice.

As demonstrated, and unrefuted as of present, is that the word "wine" in scripture covers everything from the pure juice of the grape (right in the vine and cluster itself, to the pressfats, to the containers), all the way to alcoholic content, and even sour'ed content. Context always dictates the use.

Again, Noah, "began to be an husbandman".

Gen 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:​

It didn't say Noah built a distillery, or purposefully desired to get 'drunk' (you imagine that).

Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.​

He drank of the juice that came from the grapes, and because of the conditions of the earth being changed, his location, and even his ignorance on certain things, the process of decay, fermentation set in, and slowly crept up on him, until the juice was no longer pure as it had been, and it now carried a dangerous element.

 

[WithinReason]

The usage of G3183 in the new testament ALL refer to drunkenness/intoxication.

No. I gave the two cases where it doesn't, in context. Isaiah 58:11 (see also Jeremiah 31:12) and John 2. Look past those all you want, they still exist, contrary to your position. It doesn't matter if there were 1,000 verses to 2 (argumentam ad majorem, is a fallacy). The two would still hold true to their context. It is the same with the word 'tradition' in scripture, in which the vast majority refers to evil practices, while very very few refer to good.

 

[Brandnewday]

As demonstrated, and unrefuted as of present, is that the word "wine" in scripture covers everything from the pure juice of the grape (right in the vine and cluster itself, to the pressfats, to the containers), all the way to alcoholic content, and even sour'ed content. Context always dictates the use.

Again, Noah, "began to be an husbandman".

Gen 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:​

It didn't say Noah built a distillery, or purposefully desired to get 'drunk' (you imagine that).

Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.​

He drank of the juice that came from the grapes, and because of the conditions of the earth being changed, his location, and even his ignorance on certain things, the process of decay, fermentation set in, and slowly crept up on him, until the juice was no longer pure as it had been, and it now carried a dangerous element.

Well I know the answer to my prior question now. You're stretching to make your point and assuming a great deal.

God said his word is not subject to private interpretation. You're presuming a great deal about Noah. And God, and thinking his words could not reflect his knowledge and the difference between meaning to say the juice of the grape, and wine. There were three different terms used in scripture to denote what was derived from the fruit of the vine. But that would be a waste of time.
You have chosen to believe what you need to see in scripture.
Good luck to you.

 

[TMS]

you can argue the meaning of the words and the examples in the bible but the question is if it is good or bad, right or wrong to drink alcoholic drinks. From my understanding drinking alcohol caused problems, in the bible and from personal experience alcohol results in bad consequences. (search drunken in the bible and see the the bible examples.)
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
SOBER means to be free from alcohol. how can we have a clear mind and watch when we are even partially drunk.
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

 

[WithinReason]

1 timothy 5

23 Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

24 The sins of some are obvious, reaching the place of judgment ahead of them; the sins of others trail behind them. 25 In the same way, good deeds are obvious, and even those that are not obvious cannot remain hidden forever.

Already addressed -

[1] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-19#post-4201986​

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[2] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-19#post-4201987​

You simply make the same errors as others already made, as if it had not already been addressed (and still unrefuted btw).

 

[azamzimtoti]

No. I gave the two cases where it doesn't, in context. Isaiah 58:11 (see also Jeremiah 31:12) and John 2. Look past those all you want, they still exist, contrary to your position. It doesn't matter if there were 1,000 verses to 2 (argumentam ad majorem, is a fallacy). The two would still hold true to their context. It is the same with the word 'tradition' in scripture, in which the vast majority refers to evil practices, while very very few refer to good.

Not looking past anything, context is important. In John 2 the context is people having "well drunk".


As for Jeremiah:

H7302 raveh raw-veh'

from H7301;

sated (with drink).

KJV: drunkenness, watered.

H7301 ravah raw-vaw'

a primitive root;

to slake the thirst (occasionally of other appetites).

KJV: bathe, make drunk, (take the) fill, satiate, (abundantly) satisfy, soak, water (abundantly).


Well watered is slang for drunkenness.

 

[WithinReason]

You're presuming a great deal about Noah.

Not at all. I proved it beforehand, and you simply didn't read it, or ignored it. -

[1] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-21#post-4202230

[2] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-21#post-4202231

[3] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-21#post-4202232

[4] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-21#post-4202234

 

[WithinReason]

Not looking past anything, context is important. In John 2 the context is people having "well drunk".


As for Jeremiah:

H7302 raveh raw-veh'

from H7301;

sated (with drink).

KJV: drunkenness, watered.

H7301 ravah raw-vaw'

a primitive root;

to slake the thirst (occasionally of other appetites).

KJV: bathe, make drunk, (take the) fill, satiate, (abundantly) satisfy, soak, water (abundantly).


Well watered is slang for drunkenness.

Already addressed -

[1] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-27#post-4204292

[2] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-27#post-4204284

 

[azamzimtoti]

Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

He drank of the juice that came from the grapes, and because of the conditions of the earth being changed, his location, and even his ignorance on certain things, the process of decay, fermentation set in, and slowly crept up on him, until the juice was no longer pure as it had been, and it now carried a dangerous element.

I'll bet Lot made the same mistake.

 

[WithinReason]

View attachment 213779

I'll bet Lot made the same mistake.

I'm a Christian. I do not bet. Also the context of Lot is far different than that of Noah. His daughters were corrupted by Sodom and Gomorrah (hence the "vine of Sodom" - Deut. 32:32).

 

[TMS]

Mar_14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
Tit_2:2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
Tit_2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit_2:6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Make excuses to drink and the devil will find ways to devour you.

 

[Jackson123]

It would be very dangerous to assume in this instance that Paul advocated to Timothy to drink fermented [alcoholic]"wine".

And what is your definition of wine?
Are there any wine that not alcoholic?

 

[WithinReason]

And what is your definition of wine?
Are there any wine that not alcoholic?

Here is the world's definition:

[1] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...n-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-8#post-4200051

Here is the Bible's definition:

[2] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...n-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-9#post-4200218

[3] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-10#post-4200703

You may also begin here and read onward for the Bibles uses of the words (I provide all the words pertinent to the discussion from there onwards): -

[4] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-10#post-4200703

 

[WithinReason]

There were three different terms used in scripture to denote what was derived from the fruit of the vine.

O, there is more than that, as I demonstrated in posting all the references that most people complained about.

You may also begin here and read onward for the Bibles uses of the words (I provide all the words pertinent to the discussion from there onwards): -

- https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-10#post-4200703

 

[presidente]

Alcohol is not a "fruit" of the vine, it is the corruption of the vine.

What is your authority for saying such a thing?

Numbers 28:7
7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the Lord for a drink offering.

Why would God want corruption as an offering?

You should really pray about this. Be willing to submit yourself to the word of God, and pray and ask God to give you the wisdom to let go of church tradition, of stuff you've heard preached from the pulpit, and tell Him you are willing to really accept what the word of God says. Humble yourself, and then study without trying to find an argument to make the Bible fit some preconceived ideas that you think it should mean.

Modern 'Jews' know nothing of scripture, being mostly Rabbincally led, and Talmudic, even Kabbalistic in their theology. They reject Christ the pure and True Vine. 'Kosher' isn't scriptural, its traditional.

The Kabbala was written in the middle ages. I am writing about Jewish practices in the first century. Jesus did say that about observing what the scribes and Pharisees taught. It was Jewish tradition to drink wine with the Passover meal. Jesus followed the tradition by drinking 'the fruit of the vine.' Unfermented wine did have yeast in it. It did make sense to fully ferment it to get rid of the yeast. Alcohol was not forbidden for Passover, but yeast was.

If drinking wine is wrong, why doesn't the Bible forbid it? Why did it only become a 'sin' in the past 200 years or so? Why didn't any Christians, including those who could read New Testament Greek soon after the New Testament was written, figure out that drinking wine in moderation was wrong?

Why does the Bible you hold in your hand say for a deacon not to be given to much wine? Why does it speak negatively about excess of wine if moderation is wrong?

 

[presidente]

Alcohol is inherently toxic. By its very nature it is intoxicating in any amount, as per Proverbs 20:1, and other texts cited.

The problem comes with being deceived by it. There are those who drink in moderation who are not deceived by it. What about deacons who are not to be given to much wine. If they have just a little, like the requirement allows, are they deceived by it?

And your toxic argument is sophistry. A lot of your arguments from the dictionary are nonsense. Dictionaries are supposed to capture the way people use words. They aren't an authority for what a word means. Wine is a physical substance, and pretty much all adult native speakers know what it means.

'Intoxicated' doesn't mean 'toxic' any more than left-handed people are sinister, by the English meaning of sinister.

The Bible doesn't support your theory, so you resort to sophistry and arguing about words.

 

[presidente]

Yes, Paul, by aid from Luke the physician, and the Holy Ghost/Spirit, told Timothy to drink the fruit of the grape for his stomach ailments.

Are you a KJV onlyist? Because the KJV says 'wine' not grape juice.

And where do you get that this was 'by aid from Luke the physician' had anything to do with it?

 

[WithinReason]

There are those who drink in moderation who are not deceived by it.

That is the deception.

 

[WithinReason]

...
And where do you get that this was 'by aid from Luke the physician' had anything to do with it?

2Ti_4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.

 

[presidente]

"meats (KJB, foods) which God created to be received ..." Did you see the context? It refers to Genesis. There is no alcohol in Genesis for food. That which was "created to be received" were fresh pure plants/fruits/seeds:

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Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.​

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Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.​

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Wine actually comes from grapes, from plants.

Psalm 104 says this:​

14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

Why would God specifically allow Israelites to buy and consume strong drink as a part of one of the tithes if it were forbidden?

Deuteronomy 14
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

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