The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

[Jackson123]

Well thank you for such a well thought out and put together response. I mean that.

Before I sound like I'm "attacking" can I ask you where you get all this from? I mean I understand this ts your own personal view of these things, but from my outside perspective seem to be a lot more "view" than what we read in scripture.

First of all that "holy place" is said to be in Jerusalem as well, and that the sacrifices are interrupted too. I don't think I've stepped too far outside logic to conclude the holy place in Jerusalem where sacrifices take place is God's temple. To be honest before I started seeing this problem and bringing it up I NEVER heard anything but this happens in the "3rd temple", now all of a sudden it's mushy and maybe this, or maybe that. Honestly it really blows my mind anyone with the futurist view doesn't firmly stand on this 3rd temple. Which the way I see it now do you think it's easy to stand firm on what I say I believe even when it causes others to lash out, blacklist, and call me names.(not you obviously) So when I get mish mush answers on questions like this, and now for the first time I hear things like "a literal flag that will be set in the holy place in Jerusalem's major synagogue, and in all Christian churches that will be rendered closed and off limits due to a one world order type of power set or government that will rise up" I just don't get it. A "major synagogue" is the holy place? Why? Where in the world do you draw this from scripture? <----I'm asking with all due respect, just in case it seems harsh, tone is impossible in text and I appreciate your whole attitude here and don't want to ruin it.

Let me ask you question brother

Is these verse happen in AD 70


Rev 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13

 

[Dave-L]

I say again....NONE of the writings of the Apostolic fathers indicate the slightest notion of 70ad preterism. ALL said essentially the same thing....they were STILL WAITING for Jesus's imminent return and Rapture.

The preterist heresy is rejected by all true believers.

The Millennium is a Pharisee doctrine refuted by Christ many times in the gospels. Also condemned as heresy by the early Church in 451 at Ephesus. With Amillennialism being confirmed as the biblical view.

 

[Dave-L]

Hey brother Dave, amen to that!

Glad to see you Phoneman!

 

[walknlight]

Call it what you want

ok

God Bless..

 

[cv5]

The Millennium is a Pharisee doctrine refuted by Christ many times in the gospels. Also condemned as heresy by the early Church in 451 at Ephesus. With Amillennialism being confirmed as the biblical view.

Only if you are Roman Catholic. I accord with the Apostle Paul who preached a pre-trib rapture.
Pre-trib rapture and premillenialism.....our Blessed hope and the hope of Israel.

 

[Dave-L]

Only if you are Roman Catholic. I accord with the Apostle Paul who preached a pre-trib rapture.
Pre-trib rapture and premillenialism.....our Blessed hope and the hope of Israel.

Jesus is Amillennial. He and Paul taught the rapture follows the resurrection on the last day. Consider;
The rapture;

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” (1 Corinthians 15:51–53)


But it happens after the resurrection. Which happens on the last day

“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV 1900)


“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44 (HCSB)

“so man lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor arise from their sleep.” (Job 14:12) (NET)

 

[Absolutely]

Okay here are the verses you posted most recently,

"Then we keep reading to see if that "pretrib dynamic" is authenticated...and Bingo....Jesus says this;
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

I have a question for you keeping this exact context in mind. In this scenario, the whole scenario of Noah, the flood, and the wicked. In this scenario who was taken from the earth, the good or the wicked? On top of that who did God say inherits the earth? Just thoughts, not arguments here, it just doesn't match the way God has always done it in my mind.

My post is in opposition to postrib error.
It is painfully obvious. Beyond obvious that Jesus is framing a return (hence watching ,waiting,being prepared) BEFORE (as in not AFTER) the flood.
Both Noah and the wicked were "taken"
But you are saying,I am sure, the wicked are taken,right?

Then you transpose that into "one taken,one left" right?

Ok test fit it.
There is zero conclusiveness.
Make it say that "oh the wicked are always gathered first" (which is not true).
But two are in a bed,one taken,one left.
In no way is that a "wicked taken after noah is in the ark" dynamic.
Nothing of it fits.
Nothing of it is post judgement/postrib.

EVERYTHING of it is pretrib rapture.
Every example 100% pretrib.
Btw how in the world is the boat not floating away before those that evacuated to high ground?

But it is impossible to make any of the example of Noah some post flood escape or rapture.
That concept is we wildly false.
No postjudgement evacuation with lot or noah.
The postrib adherent has no traction biblically.
99% of their argument is to disqualify the opposition.

 

[cv5]

Ignatius, Clement, Polycarp, Justin Martyr. All of them, taught by living Apostles, all of them living well beyond 70ad, knew perfectly well that their Lord had yet to return. None of them preached or believed preterism. All of them believed in the Rapture.

I'm with them.....first hand witnesses to the events of the day.

 

[Dave-L]

Ignatius, Clement, Polycarp, Justin Martyr. All of them, taught by living Apostles, all of them living well beyond 70ad, knew perfectly well that their Lord had yet to return. None of them preached or believed preterism. All of them believed in the Rapture.

I'm with them.....first hand witnesses to the events of the day.

Jesus taught Amillennialism. The Pharisees taught millennialism. He refuted them in the gospel, But it was slow catching on.

 

[garee]

Only if you are Roman Catholic. I accord with the Apostle Paul who preached a pre-trib rapture.
Pre-trib rapture and premillenialism.....our Blessed hope and the hope of Israel.

Amillennialism was on both sides of the reformation.Those who did the reforming as it is written as well as the other.

What differences were there according to that school of the end times study.? Did both follow the assigned hermeneutics so that the parables could have the gospel meaning revealed? Or does one simply literalize it (the signified) making the parable without effect?

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Do we have a obligation to search out the signified understanding? Should we ignore the commandment for rightly dividing and walk by sight after the literal things seen the temporal?

 

[Absolutely]

Talk is cheap. Lets see the scriptures.
Rev, 14 tells us about the 144,000, A message from 3 angels and the harvest of the earth/Resurrection day. But there is not one single word in Rev 14 about any 7 years of Tribulation or 7 years of the wrath of God. There is nothing in Rev 14 about Resurrection taking place before a period of Tribulation or after a period of Tribulation. If anything Rev. 14 is telling us that the harvesting of the earth happens just before or even after the battle of Armageddon.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Blood raising to the level of a horses bridle is talking about the battle of Armageddon. If that were true, that would mean that the resurrection does not take place until after a period Tribulation and just before the battle of Armageddon. That is unless you believe that the battle of Armageddon happens before the Resurrection. LOL And we all know that the battle of Armageddon happens at the end of a period of seven years and the wrath of God is pored out on the earth.
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Man REALLY you are mixed up, calling scripture something that it doesn't even speak of and in reality you have proven my point that "THERE WILL BE NO RESURRECTION UNTIL AFTER A PERIOD OF 3 1/2 YEAR OF GREAT TRIBULATION.
As I said, everybody know that the resurrection happens before the battle of Armageddon and the battle of Armageddon happens after the Wrath of God is pored out onto the earth.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Again as I have said. Talking without scripture is really cheap and doesn't prove anything, especially a Pre-Trib doctrinal belief
So put your scripture where your mouth is! In which scriptures are words of Jesus directly against me?
Where in the Word of God does't it tell us that there will be a Rapture before a Resurrection?? If you are beyond the shadow of a doubt correct it should be easy to quote some scripture proving I am wrong.
So far you have failed to do that. Not once have you provided scripture to prove you are right. But I on the other hand I have provided many scriptures to prove you are wrong and you haven't been able to prove that any of those scroptures I have quote are being minipulated to fit a Post Trib doctrine.

Lol
You wasted all that hot air.
Classic.
You left out the verses about Jesus gathering the jews FROM A CLOUD.
CLASSIC.
YOUR DEAL truly is an incubator of cunning omission.
Just leave out rev 14s rapture.

Then you go on and on how you are so,so right on and scriptural.
Why do you guys do that?
A babe in Christ with a bible stands you guys on your heads with his little finger.
It's like shooting ducks in a barrel.
But your doctrine is safe.
Safe amongst postrib circles in their cunning omissions

 

[Absolutely]

Ignatius, Clement, Polycarp, Justin Martyr. All of them, taught by living Apostles, all of them living well beyond 70ad, knew perfectly well that their Lord had yet to return. None of them preached or believed preterism. All of them believed in the Rapture.

I'm with them.....first hand witnesses to the events of the day.

I would add that those early believers were hindered in their perception by the destruction and scattering of israel.
They saw no nation of israel.
Israel had vanished from the face of the earth.

Enter 1948

That changed the prophetic prism.

(Notice how postribs frame that dynamic in cliches)
Lahaye
Jesuits
McDonald
Darby
Schofield
The pretrib doctrine "not mentioned until"

Have you ever seen one of them properly frame it????

They use cunning smoke screens.
All that church father rhetoric of postribs is skewed...big time

 

[Absolutely]

"Talk is cheap. Lets see the scriptures."
I go to the trouble to post them.
you respond in refusal to acknowledge them.

postrib doctrine 101

 

[Absolutely]

Do you remember I say what happen to Stephen, john the baptis etc?
God not stop this devil tribulation nor rapture Stephen or John the Baptist before people kill them.

Do you remember I explain that in great tribulation according rev 13 the devil wrath, not God wrath.

I wish God always rapture us when ever there is devil tribulation. But Paul say

Otherwise.
2 Thessalonians
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Your error is you think mark of the beast as wrath of God.

Let me remind you one more time.

God not rapture Israel when God wrath happen to agypt

God able to protect without rapture.

Paul not lie, he say rapture happen after man of sin or tribulation

Then came Jesus.
Insert that in.

You do make a valid point in that Israel IS protected during the trib.
That is true and plain.
The flying scorpions are commanded to NOT STING the 144k
Clearly no Christians are present.
The church is out of the picture by then.

But the passover and exodus does not fit.
They were delivered to WANDER in the wilderness.
Not to the promise land.
IOW they were delivered into judgement or purging to kill off those that were faithless.

 

[Absolutely]

The 7 year gt is Jacobs/isrsels troble.
Combine that with "the time of the gentiles fulfilled"
The church age ends.
Jacob's trouble begins.

 

[garee]

Jesus taught Amillennialism. The Pharisees taught millennialism. He refuted them in the gospel, But it was slow catching on.

Makes me wonder why the difference between the Catholics and the reformed, both looking to "Amillennialism?"

It would appear Catholic make the thousands year a unknown which it is.

The rapture called the last day or day of the Lord in the bible is the end of things under the sun. . it will come .The former will not be remembered or ever come to the mind of the new creatures.

Catholics who walk by sight the temporal like the Jehovah Witnesses are hoping in the things seen the temporal are the eternal . We can see that when Peter started an oral tradition that John would not die as those who glory in the flesh.

Catholic turn the meaning of that parable upside down an use it a false proof God is still adding to his written witness in another book the book of the law of the fathers CCC. They say it is of divine origin . Making the tradition of men and the tradition of God one master. Therefor making sola scriptural (God's witness) without effect.

The reformed understood the "thousand years" represented a unknown all 9 times it in used the Bible. Never once as a literal time period

The reformed were not hoping corrupted flesh and blood could enter the new order and profit for something. Even Jesus said his flesh and blood profits for zero .it was the unseen work of the two that did profit quickening the soul giving us His understanding so that we can search for him

 

[garee]

The 7 year gt is Jacobs/isrsels troble.
Combine that with "the time of the gentiles fulfilled"
The church age ends.
Jacob's trouble begins.

How will we know when that time comes? ( Jacobs/Israel trouble)

 

[cv5]

The 7 year gt is Jacobs/isrsels troble.
Combine that with "the time of the gentiles fulfilled"
The church age ends.
Jacob's trouble begins.

Clearly and beyond any shadow of doubt.

 

[garee]

Then came Jesus.
Insert that in.

You do make a valid point in that Israel IS protected during the trib.
That is true and plain.
The flying scorpions are commanded to NOT STING the 144k
Clearly no Christians are present.
The church is out of the picture by then.

But the passover and exodus does not fit.
They were delivered to WANDER in the wilderness.
Not to the promise land.
IOW they were delivered into judgement or purging to kill off those that were faithless.

Flying scorpions in that parable represent lying spirits that bring a false gospel. The poison of adders and scorpions

No Christians present? Not present doing what? Hiding??

The 144,000 represent a unknown the redeemed. His chase virgin bride spoken of. like when Christ used used Timothy in a parable. Paul as in labor pain working with the gospel until Christ formed belief in Timothy . Timothy one of the many chaste virgins that did not defile themselves with other gods.not having them before or living God not seen. but they rather as new creatures obeyed the 1st commandment.

The phrase. . .they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins simply represents "mankind" looking ahead to their new incorruptible bodies.Neither male nor female, Jew nor Gentile . As sons of God what we will be is no shown We walk by faith the unseen eternal

God whose name Jealous informs us......

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

There is no division between a Jew or a gentile, male or female. The signified language of parable must be interpreted as so .

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men (mankind), being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

God does not number people or days we look to the unseen eternal .

Remember its not just the men that follow the lamb that dwells in their bodies of death or just the Jews, as the redeemed. God is a respecter of gender or nations as flesh.

144,000 still represents a number no man could count

Revelation 7 :3-9 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

No law of men from unknown tribes only. No such idea as woman or gentiles not allowed.

The genealogy ended with Jesus the Son of man. Impossible to trace tribes today .They are all lost tribes. Why serve a lost in effective cause?

 

[Dave-L]

Makes me wonder why the difference between the Catholics and the reformed, both looking to "Amillennialism?"

It would appear Catholic make the thousands year a unknown which it is.

The rapture called the last day or day of the Lord in the bible is the end of things under the sun. . it will come .The former will not be remembered or ever come to the mind of the new creatures.

Catholics who walk by sight the temporal like the Jehovah Witnesses are hoping in the things seen the temporal are the eternal . We can see that when Peter started an oral tradition that John would not die as those who glory in the flesh.

Catholic turn the meaning of that parable upside down an use it a false proof God is still adding to his written witness in another book the book of the law of the fathers CCC. They say it is of divine origin . Making the tradition of men and the tradition of God one master. Therefor making sola scriptural (God's witness) without effect.

The reformed understood the "thousand years" represented a unknown all 9 times it in used the Bible. Never once as a literal time period

The reformed were not hoping corrupted flesh and blood could enter the new order and profit for something. Even Jesus said his flesh and blood profits for zero .it was the unseen work of the two that did profit quickening the soul giving us His understanding so that we can search for him

If you stick with Jesus, both the Reformed and Catholics have flaws in their views. But remain far closer to the truth than all millenarians.