The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

[cv5]

Talk is cheap. Lets see the scriptures.
Rev, 14 tells us about the 144,000, A message from 3 angels and the harvest of the earth/Resurrection day. But there is not one single word in Rev 14 about any 7 years of Tribulation or 7 years of the wrath of God. There is nothing in Rev 14 about Resurrection taking place before a period of Tribulation or after a period of Tribulation. If anything Rev. 14 is telling us that the harvesting of the earth happens just before or even after the battle of Armageddon.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Blood raising to the level of a horses bridle is talking about the battle of Armageddon. If that were true, that would mean that the resurrection does not take place until after a period Tribulation and just before the battle of Armageddon. That is unless you believe that the battle of Armageddon happens before the Resurrection. LOL And we all know that the battle of Armageddon happens at the end of a period of seven years and the wrath of God is pored out on the earth.
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Man REALLY you are mixed up, calling scripture something that it doesn't even speak of and in reality you have proven my point that "THERE WILL BE NO RESURRECTION UNTIL AFTER A PERIOD OF 3 1/2 YEAR OF GREAT TRIBULATION.
As I said, everybody know that the resurrection happens before the battle of Armageddon and the battle of Armageddon happens after the Wrath of God is pored out onto the earth.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Again as I have said. Talking without scripture is really cheap and doesn't prove anything, especially a Pre-Trib doctrinal belief
So put your scripture where your mouth is! In which scriptures are words of Jesus directly against me?
Where in the Word of God does't it tell us that there will be a Rapture before a Resurrection?? If you are beyond the shadow of a doubt correct it should be easy to quote some scripture proving I am wrong.
So far you have failed to do that. Not once have you provided scripture to prove you are right. But I on the other hand I have provided many scriptures to prove you are wrong and you haven't been able to prove that any of those scroptures I have quote are being minipulated to fit a Post Trib doctrine.

Aaahhhhmmm.......this harvest IS part of Gods wrath Rev 14:19. Jesus makes reference to this Matt 13:30 as do the Apostles prophets.

I fear Matt 13:14 falls upon so many on this thread.

 

[cv5]

The church is absent from the book of Revelation after chapter 3. The book of Revelation is aimed at Israel not the church. The terrible tribulation is aimed at Israel and centered on Jerusalem not the church.

The church is not appointed unto wrath. Israel is going to be chastised by God one last time to prepare them to see and receive their Redeemer Christ coming in the clouds and entering Jerusalem to save them from complete destruction.

Understanding dispensational teaching is key to comprehending what God is doing and why.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Indeed. Dispensationalism per Eph 1:10, Heb 1:1 and elsewhere.....an overwhelming reality.

 

[Jimbone]

Aaahhhhmmm.......this harvest IS part of Gods wrath Rev 14:19. Jesus makes reference to this Matt 13:30 as do the Apostles prophets.

I fear Matt 13:14 falls upon so many on this thread.

Which could just as easily fall on you honestly. This could apply to any of us concerning one matter or another. Are you more educated than "so many" or something, just because we read the text different from you?

 

[walknlight]

Hello again!

Wrath means punishment and Tribulation means Affliction.

According to the English dictionary, not the Hebrew or Greek in scripture.
Make no mistake the Hebrew language is picturesque the Greek language is precise......
The Bible is a Mediterranean middle eastern book translated in various languages
over 85% of the English language came from ... The Bible.

Haven't got a clue where you got your number from.

I know. Unfortunately word study is not being taught these days.
and this is not the platform to teach to use words in the context they were written.

2Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

In conclusion, we have a different belief concerning the G2347.
I believe the LORD provides a way of escape for His G1577, from His G2372, by being G726 in to His glory.

God Bless!

 

[cv5]

One of the big issues with the dispensationalist view is that much of the content of Revelation is attack upon God's people (the Church) by Satan and his cohorts, both angelic and human. It is part of the war between children of the woman and children of the serpent.

It's really only the last ten trumpets, which occur after the resurrection (and changing) of God's people which could be properly called God's wrath.

In fact, God's wrath is actually a reaction to the evil events that are perpetrated by the servants of Satan over the course of millennia, but more focused at the end.

By the way, when asked about the Rapture and where it appears in the Bible, John MacArthur stated "in the white space". In other words, it doesn't appear AT ALL. It is inferred by dispensationalism, which proposes that the Church bails out seven months prior, rather than staying and being a faithful witness.

And, as mentioned, the origin of the teaching is likely the claims of a young woman.

There is zero wrath upon Gods people in Revelation. Which aligns perfectly with the dispensationalist view so called of today.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

There is zero wrath upon Gods people in Revelation. Which aligns perfectly with the dispensationalist view so called of today.

There is zero wrath upon God's people in Revelation, BUT there is suffering and martyrdom that they experience.

There is a difference between experiencing the suffering and persecution described in Revelation, with experiencing the wrath of God, which will be poured out on unbelievers by God, and is described in Rev 16.

What I am saying is that the claim is made by dispensationalists that the church is taken to heaven during this persecution, which apparently only happens to the Jewish Christians saved after the Rapture, according to their theology.

And, even MacArthur mentions that there's no Scriptural proof for the Rapture in Revelation..it is inferred by dispensationalists, as they don't believe the Church is mentioned after Revelation 6.

However, my position would be that they fail to see the symbolism of the 144,000 as being the Church, instead claiming that this is a group of Jewish evangelists.

Even though the names of the tribes don't align perfectly with the tribes of Israel.

For instance, Dan is omitted, and Manasseh is included along with Joseph, which makes no sense. Ephraim is omitted, therefore Manasseh should not be included either.

But, it makes sense to me if we are talking about True Israel, which is the church.

I recommend the Shorter Commentary on Revelation by GK Beale if anyone really wants to understand Revelation. He gives a coherent explanation on why Israel is referred to in this manner. And, it avoids the dispensationalist error of viewing Revelation as a sequence of events. That's really the problem with them..they don't understand that there is overlap between the different sections of Revelation. It is a number of visions with overlapping content. For instance, the exact moment of the fall of human society is mentioned about 3 times.

 

[Jackson123]

Lol
You leave out "before the flood"

You invert it to after the flood.
(Which means you changed how Jesus framed noah and the setting)

Then we keep reading to see if that "pretrib dynamic" is authenticated...and Bingo....Jesus says this;
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Beyond any doubt,Jesus is describing the pretrib rapture.

Jesus in the same chapter confirming the pretrib rapture and VIVIDLY differentiating the rapture from the second coming WITH THOSE FROM THE PRETRIB RAPTURE.

Without a doubt the rapture is pretrib

I don't know how many time t have to say
Read verse 37 hundred time and answere my question

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Is this verse say .....

A. As the day of Noah .........so shall the coming of the son

Or

B. As the day of Noah .......so shall the great tribulation


Please chose A Or B

 

[cv5]

There is zero wrath upon God's people in Revelation, BUT there is suffering and martyrdom that they experience.

There is a difference between experiencing the suffering and persecution described in Revelation, with experiencing the wrath of God, which will be poured out on unbelievers by God, and is described in Rev 16.

What I am saying is that the claim is made by dispensationalists that the church is taken to heaven during this persecution, which apparently only happens to the Jewish Christians saved after the Rapture, according to their theology.

And, even MacArthur mentions that there's no Scriptural proof for the Rapture in Revelation..it is inferred by dispensationalists, as they don't believe the Church is mentioned after Revelation 6.

However, my position would be that they fail to see the symbolism of the 144,000 as being the Church, instead claiming that this is a group of Jewish evangelists.

Even though the names of the tribes don't align perfectly with the tribes of Israel.

For instance, Dan is omitted, and Manasseh is included along with Joseph, which makes no sense. Ephraim is omitted, therefore Manasseh should not be included either.

But, it makes sense to me if we are talking about True Israel, which is the church.

I recommend the Shorter Commentary on Revelation by GK Beale if anyone really wants to understand Revelation. He gives a coherent explanation on why Israel is referred to in this manner. And, it avoids the dispensationalist error of viewing Revelation as a sequence of events. That's really the problem with them..they don't understand that there is overlap between the different sections of Revelation. It is a number of visions with overlapping content. For instance, the exact moment of the fall of human society is mentioned about 3 times.

Look up "tribulation saints". Distinct from the Church. The 144,000 certainly are Israelites, reconsituted and recommissioned TO PREACH. However in the manner of OT prophets calling down fire and plagues. This in stark contrast to the Church (who are in heaven being raptured) who are to be HARMLESS in their preaching.

The futurist literalist pre-trib rapure view is undoubtedy correct.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Look up "tribulation saints". Distinct from the Church. The 144,000 certainly are Israelites, reconsituted and recommissioned TO PREACH. However in the manner of OT prophets calling down fire and plagues. This in stark contrast to the Church (who are in heaven being raptured) who are to be HARMLESS in their preaching.

The futurist literalist pre-trib rapure view is undoubtedy correct.

I know what Darbyites teach..I don't need to look it up

I don't think it is coherent, and while claiming they are the expert exegetes of Scripture, they propose things that are outlandish..

It is hilarious how MacArthur said "there are no allegories in Scripture" and the Rapture is in the "white space between the verses" in Revelation, yet you guys dare to claim others are exegeting Scripture wrongly.

It's like the blind trying to lead others.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Are you guys aware that CI Scofield added the "Dr." title to his name at some point, although he had no degree, either earned or honorary?

If I started calling myself "Dr." out of the blue, I would get called on it.

How is his relevant? It speaks to me in terms of credibility. If someone isn't honest, then their exegesis is not credible to me.

There are modern-day "teachers" that I have rejected because they did things out of character with Christianity.

For instance, Mark Driscoll used vulgar language with regards to women and sexuality. At that point he ceased to be a credible witness. James MacDonald made remarks concerning putting pornography on the computer of a writer that reported negatively about him, and tried to hire a hit man to kill his son in law. Same situation.

Lying about educational titles would disqualify the person as a teacher imho.

 

[cv5]

I know what Darbyites teach..I don't need to look it up

I don't think it is coherent, and while claiming they are the expert exegetes of Scripture, they propose things that are outlandish..

It is hilarious how MacArthur said "there are no allegories in Scripture" and the Rapture is in the "white space between the verses" in Revelation, yet you guys dare to claim others are exegeting Scripture wrongly.

It's like the blind trying to lead others.

I am no Darbyite. What do you think.....everyone needs a guru? I can read and properly exegete scripture all by myself.

BTW....MacArthur is a pre-trib premillenial dispensationalist. One of the most vociferous. Besides me.

One other thing....those who are NOT WAITING for Christ's imminent return are SURE to miss it. The warnings are explicit.

 

[Jimbone]

I am no Darbyite. What do you think.....everyone needs a guru? I can read and properly exegete scripture all by myself.

BTW....MacArthur is a pre-trib premillenial dispensationalist. One of the most vociferous. Besides me.

One other thing....those who are NOT WAITING for Christ's imminent return are SURE to miss it. The warnings are explicit.

But what if the ones not looking for Him to return now, are out declaring Jesus Christ King and are pointing everyone He puts in front of us to Him, for His glory. Is this God you say would never leave His people to endure His wrath going to leave me to it? If I'm out doing this in truth I'm going to be left behind?I don't understand, this seems contradictory.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I am no Darbyite. What do you think.....everyone needs a guru? I can read and properly exegete scripture all by myself.

BTW....MacArthur is a pre-trib premillenial dispensationalist. One of the most vociferous. Besides me.

One other thing....those who are NOT WAITING for Christ's imminent return are SURE to miss it. The warnings are explicit.

The amillennial person is in constant awareness of the fact that they may not be alive the next minute.

I have heard dispensationalists claim that amillennialists are immoral due to their lack of understanding imminency, but this is really a sub-intelligent claim as anyone with any sense at all would realize he could die in the next minute, and face judgment. So, this is like one of the weakest arguments anyone could use, yet it is a typical dispensationalist claim.

You guys should really endeavor to weed your thinking of this sort of misrepresentation and false claims from your "teachers".

 

[garee]

I am no Darbyite. What do you think.....everyone needs a guru? I can read and properly exegete scripture all by myself.

BTW....MacArthur is a pre-trib premillenial dispensationalist. One of the most vociferous. Besides me.

One other thing....those who are NOT WAITING for Christ's imminent return are SURE to miss it. The warnings are explicit.

Jesus will come in a time not expected like a thief in the night just as in the days of Noah, same sign of the times a unknown ending. Christians are not of the number .They walk by faith the unseen eternal .

No sign as a wonder "source of future faith" is given . Simply a sign of the times.

Why look for one?

Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

Why do they seek after a sign?

 

[garee]

Jesus will come in a time not expected like a thief in the night just as in the days of Noah, same sign of the times a unknown ending. Christians are not of the number .They walk by faith the unseen eternal .

No sign as a wonder "source of future faith" is given . Simply a sign of the times. They must be distinguished from another or the father of lie would make it all one thing . Seeking after the things seen the temporal rather than the unseen eternal .

Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

That sign was fulfilled when Christ said it is finished it served its one time purpose

Why do they seek after a sign as a wonderment rather than walking by faith ? No faith?

 

[Whispered]

Well thank you for such a well thought out and put together response. I mean that.

Before I sound like I'm "attacking" can I ask you where you get all this from? I mean I understand this ts your own personal view of these things, but from my outside perspective seem to be a lot more "view" than what we read in scripture.

First of all that "holy place" is said to be in Jerusalem as well, and that the sacrifices are interrupted too. I don't think I've stepped too far outside logic to conclude the holy place in Jerusalem where sacrifices take place is God's temple. To be honest before I started seeing this problem and bringing it up I NEVER heard anything but this happens in the "3rd temple", now all of a sudden it's mushy and maybe this, or maybe that. Honestly it really blows my mind anyone with the futurist view doesn't firmly stand on this 3rd temple. Which the way I see it now do you think it's easy to stand firm on what I say I believe even when it causes others to lash out, blacklist, and call me names.(not you obviously) So when I get mish mush answers on questions like this, and now for the first time I hear things like "a literal flag that will be set in the holy place in Jerusalem's major synagogue, and in all Christian churches that will be rendered closed and off limits due to a one world order type of power set or government that will rise up" I just don't get it. A "major synagogue" is the holy place? Why? Where in the world do you draw this from scripture? <----I'm asking with all due respect, just in case it seems harsh, tone is impossible in text and I appreciate your whole attitude here and don't want to ruin it.

For me, what I referred to as the "major synagogue" in Jerusalem is known by that other title, more well known than my own wording for it , is the great synagogue, 56 King George Street, in Jerusalem.

The rest is just what I would say I was inspired to see in answer to the question you asked.

 

[Phoneman-777]

All of Dispensationalism comes from a GAP between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks scripture does not mention. From there it cuts and pastes scripture out of context to paint in its scheme. They deny Jesus fulfilled the 70 weeks as written. They turn him into Antichrist. And develop a chain of false prophecy based on that calling for a restored Roman Empire. Because that was the setting the 70th week took part in. The kingdom did come during the 70th week but since they and the Pharisees looked for a physical kingdom, they missed it. The Kingdom came but it was spiritual.

Hey brother Dave, amen to that!

 

[massorite]

Hello again!

According to the English dictionary, not the Hebrew or Greek in scripture.
Make no mistake the Hebrew language is picturesque the Greek language is precise......
The Bible is a Mediterranean middle eastern book translated in various languages
over 85% of the English language came from ... The Bible.

I know. Unfortunately word study is not being taught these days.
and this is not the platform to teach to use words in the context they were written.

2Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

In conclusion, we have a different belief concerning the G2347.
I believe the LORD provides a way of escape for His G1577, from His G2372, by being G726 in to His glory.

God Bless!

Call it what you want but the only Bible that is available are translated from the Hebrew and the Greek and if you want to grasp at straws Jesus spoke Aramaic as well, which was the common language in Galilee and you didn't mentioned that language did you. Folks like you make a new Studant of the Bible confused when you start talking about the original languages the Bible was translated from when there are few if any Bibles, Dictionaries or Lexicons available in an Mediterranean Middle Eastern Language. For the most part the Bible is only available in English that was translated from the Hebrew and the Greek. So I say it again. The numbers you are quoted don't have anything in common with the word Wrath" as in The "Wrath of God". Besides God is in control and it looks like God has seen fit to use the KJV version with the few flaws that it has be the number one best selling Bible on the face of the planet since King James instituted its design.
I looked up all those number you have quoted and are a definition of the Wrath Of God. We are not having a disagreement. Your simply wrong. The numbers you quoted have to do with the, catching away, gathering together. being thronged, applying pressure and so on.Non of which have anything to do with the Wrath of God.

 

[massorite]

Aaahhhhmmm.......this harvest IS part of Gods wrath Rev 14:19. Jesus makes reference to this Matt 13:30 as do the Apostles prophets.

I fear Matt 13:14 falls upon so many on this thread.

A tare looks exactly like wheat until it matures enough to begin to show its fruit. The fruit of a tares when it comes out is black and is poisonous/bitter verses the wheat which is white and good for food. Matthew 13:30 tells us that God will harvest tares first before the wheat, the wicked before the righteous. This verse is talking about the church, not the resurrection. That is why Mattew 13:29 tells the servents not to weed out the tares because it might take up the wheat as well.
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
There are folks we sit next to every Sunday who are fake believers who are shallow in their faith and commitment to Christ. One day these tares will turn on the truely commited believers of Christ when face with the choice of giving up Christ for the things of this world. IE the Mark of The Beast.

 

[cv5]

All of Dispensationalism comes from a GAP between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks scripture does not mention. From there it cuts and pastes scripture out of context to paint in its scheme. They deny Jesus fulfilled the 70 weeks as written. They turn him into Antichrist. And develop a chain of false prophecy based on that calling for a restored Roman Empire. Because that was the setting the 70th week took part in. The kingdom did come during the 70th week but since they and the Pharisees looked for a physical kingdom, they missed it. The Kingdom came but it was spiritual.

I say again....NONE of the writings of the Apostolic fathers indicate the slightest notion of 70ad preterism. ALL said essentially the same thing....they were STILL WAITING for Jesus's imminent return and Rapture.

The preterist heresy is rejected by all true believers.